MICA-EM missile should get increased range in the face of 12x R-77-1

[SpectreXXI]

BVR-wise yes compared to all missile except Darter/Derby and R-77.

Spamming AMRAAM at early game compared to conserving MICA at late game have very different impact on the outcome of the game. If MICA gets its missile fixed, this will counterbalance the AMRAAM Spammer.

For the records, like @PyroAddict reported, if AMRAAM was also gimped, I don’t mind if AMRAAM also gets its historical range in exchange for MICA also need the same.

MICA was okay (and pretty competitive) when EFT and Rafale still hasn’t arrived yet (F-15E still isn’t hard to defeat due to brick FM at high speed, something that EFT doesn’t have).

[SpectreXXI]

Winrate wise, at least here by my experience. I play British Eurofighter, even if I don’t get a 1-2 kill, I get higher chance to win the match. While in Rafale, even if I manage to score 1-2 kill, there’s a 55-65% chance my team would lose.

Even if Rafale got the Supercruise buff as of Dev Server today, IMHO it really wouldn’t increase the chance to turn the tide of match, because faster aircraft doesn’t gurantee better defensive position (looking at F-15E here), because in current meta, shoot first is the best doctrine to turn the tide of the match.

That’s also why, eventhough R-77-1 would give Su-30SM a chance to turn the tide, it still asn’t meta as F-15E/EFT, because Su-30SM lacks speed which required to help the Fox 3 travel faster.

[MythicPi]

First of all, funny of you to claim that as a player that plays almost exclusively France, using that argument against a player that plays almost every nation.

Secondly:

Defyn (StatShark - See All Player, Missile, and Vehicle Statistics):

Spoiler

• Hasn’t specified which he believes is best afaik (barring the dogfighting performance)
• Only plays air battles
• Marginally better KDR in Rafale (5.136 vs 4.423)
• Effectively the same kills per game (2.306 vs 2.300)
• Massively higher WR in Rafale (81.6% vs 68%)
• Effectively equal playtime in both (49 vs 50 games)

GeneralLee (StatShark - See All Player, Missile, and Vehicle Statistics):

Spoiler

• Claims EFT is more meta
• Brings his jets into ground battles as well, skewing data
• Lower KDR in Rafale vs EFT (1.667 vs 2.554 combined between German and British EFT or 2.793 for just German EFT (his best one))
• Lower KPG in Rafale vs EFT(1.212 vs 1.675 combined between German and British EFT or 1.774 for just German EFT (his best one))
• Substantially higher WR in Rafale (84.9% vs 65.58% combined or 66.4% in German EFT)
• Substantially less games in Rafale compared to EFT (33 vs 154 combined)

Seek (StatShark - See All Player, Missile, and Vehicle Statistics):

Spoiler

• Claimed Rafale is the best
• Higher KDR in Rafale (2.206 vs 1.571 combined or 1.833 in Italian EFT (his best one))
• Effectively same KPG in both (1.471 vs 1.486 combined or 1.571 in Italian EFT)
• Vastly higher WR in Rafale (73.5% vs 54.05% combined or 85.7% in Italian EFT (over 7 games, so technically outlier data, but included it anyways))
• Substantially more games played in Rafale (102 vs 27)

BiasedThunder (StatShark - See All Player, Missile, and Vehicle Statistics):

Spoiler

• Has more games in the EFT and Rafale (and other top tier jets) than all other youtubers included above
  Not a big youtuber, included because his video claims the Rafale is better (relevant to convo) and due to his actual experience level in multiple aircrafts at top tier. (feel free to discredit if you think I’m being biased in including them)
• Brings his jets into ground battles as well, skewing data
• Roughly equal or higher KDR in Rafale (2.906 vs 2.370 combined or 3.089 in British Typhoon(his best one))
• Slightly better or slightly worse KPG depending on if you choose his top Typhoon or combined performance (1.641 vs 1.513 combined or 1.821 in British EFT)
• Slightly better or slightly worse WR depending on if you choose his top Typhoon or combined performance (70% vs 63.31 combined or 73.3% in British EFT)
• Similar games played (170 vs 199 combined)

So of the above 4;

Spoiler

• 3/4 perform equal to or better in the Rafale than in the EFT
• 2/4 Claim Rafale is superior
• 1/4 Claims EFT is superior
• 1 of the 2 players with roughly equivalent time in both jets performs outright better in the Rafale
• The other player with roughly equal play time between both aircrafts performs roughly equivalently between both.
• The general consensus when searching up WT videos of both jets seems to be split

Finally (just for some more general stats comparison):

Rafale higher avg KDR, higher avg KPG, higher WR (vs all 3 EFT's combined):

Top 10 most played jets of the last month:

By effectively all available metrics, the Rafale performs better in-game than the EFT does. The youtubers you claim “will say that the Eurofighter is the meta and the better choice currently.” don’t actually say that, some claim the EFT is better, others claim the Rafale is better, and we could likely go back and forth with “well X youtuber says Y plane is the more meta one!” . Generally speaking, the one they perform best in is the one they claim is best. They also tend to have very low games played in either plane, so its actually somewhat dubious to use them as your yardstick in the first place.

And as stated before, the whole “muh france minor nation ubermensch pilots!” doesn’t work as an excuse when;

1. Italian players (another minor nation) perform worse in their EFT’s than French pilots perform in their Rafale
2. The Rafale is (by TS’ numbers) the most played jet in the game

The very most you could claim is that the Rafale and EFT are approximately equivalent (which would be a tall claim considering the TS numbers, but whatever), and even then, your argument for buffing the MICA’s sits dead at square 1. The Rafale is either the single best jet in the game, or tied for best at the moment, and asking for a buff before the patch has even dropped and stating it might be outdated by the introduction of a new jet and missile is laughable and excessive.

You either genuinely believe your Rafale is worst than it is because you have no experience in any other nations top tier jets (extreme bias), or are willfully trying to gain another advantage for a jet you know doesnt need it (unlikely seeing as you dont actually know what any other top tier fox 3 or top tier jet is like to use in the first place).

[SpectreXXI]

Tbh the last time I feel MICA was overpowered is the start of Storm Warning Live Server, because at that time most match are actually not mirrored, and if you’re on French Team, you have guranteed win.

While today, because of mirrored match again, as every team have its own Eurofighter now, Rafale sitting at awkward position. Yes, it has good FM, yes it is reallyyyyyy good WVR Capabilities, but because of this good FM and good WVR, every dead Rafale would bringing greater impact to team performance to win the match, just like if you manage to eliminate F-14A IRIAF before spamming its Fakour-90.

[SpectreXXI]

@MythicPi

First of all, funny of you to claim that as a player that plays almost exclusively France, using that argument against a player that plays almost every nation.

Well how about yours then? I don’t see you play either Eurofighter or Rafale, at least from statshark

@MythicPi

Finally (just for some more general stats comparison):

Rafale higher avg KDR, higher avg KPG, higher WR (vs all 3 EFT’s combined):

Top 10 most played jets of the last month:

By effectively all available metrics, the Rafale performs better in-game than the EFT does. The youtubers you claim “will say that the Eurofighter is the meta and the better choice currently.” don’t actually say that, some claim the EFT is better, others claim the Rafale is better, and we could likely go back and forth with “well X youtuber says Y plane is the more meta one!” . Generally speaking, the one they perform best in is the one they claim is best. They also tend to have very low games played in either plane, so its actually somewhat dubious to use them as your yardstick in the first place.

And as stated before, the whole “muh france minor nation ubermensch pilots!” doesn’t work as an excuse when;

1. Italian players (another minor nation) perform worse in their EFT’s than French pilots perform in their Rafale
2. The Rafale is (by TS’ numbers) the most played jet in the game

The very most you could claim is that the Rafale and EFT are approximately equivalent (which would be a tall claim considering the TS numbers, but whatever), and even then, your argument for buffing the MICA’s sits dead at square 1. The Rafale is either the single best jet in the game, or tied for best at the moment, and asking for a buff before the patch has even dropped and stating it might be outdated by the introduction of a new jet and missile is laughable and excessive.

You either genuinely believe your Rafale is worst than it is because you have no experience in any other nations top tier jets (extreme bias), or are willfully trying to gain another advantage for a jet you know doesnt need it (unlikely seeing as you dont actually know what any other top tier fox 3 or top tier jet is like to use in the first place).

No offense but, you’re also quickly jump to conclusion with that stat. Eventhough Rafale is the most played aircraft in last month, it doesn’t mean in the average match, you would see an army of Rafale (neither you would see an army of F-15E or EFT). As we can see that combining the total player using EF-2000 and F-15E we would get result slightly bigger than Rafale itself (which approx. 11k times compared to 10k). The composition of team in an average match is still diversed (usually there’s a 50% US Player, 30% German Player, and the rest are minor nation approximately), and the problem with Rafale stats being exponentially better than every other aircraft is due to the fact France almost rarely get mirrored, while its contender like F-15E and EF-2000 which is US and Germany respectively, will always get mirrored which mean the winrate would also get equalized (because every US/German Aircraft that are winning, there are losing US/German Aircraft). You can see that Israeli Playerbase also tend to have this trend, same aircraft with the US, but with greater statistics.

If French player is on the losing side, but the French player still at least maintain a good K/D, this still will contribute to the great K/D of Rafale.
If the French player is on the winning side but also don’t maintain a good K/D either because he’s already dead from AMRAAM Spam, or the AMRAAM Spam of his team is already racking up much kill, and he didn’t get the spoil. So, still contributing to great winrate of Rafale.

This is something that US and German Player can’t have simply because their team getting mirrored everytime.

Tbh, if Gaijin bringing back actually unique matchmaking (don’t have to be historical, but just remove this mirrored match BS), I think the stats will be more accurate, because IMHO, current matchmaker favour the minor nation and killing major nation like US, Germany, and China (yes considering China also gets mirrored now).

[MythicPi]

@SpectreXXI

Well how about yours then? I don’t see you play either Eurofighter or Rafale, at least from statshark

I play almost exclusively in sim since about 1.5y now, so if you wanna see what top jets I’ve played, the sim tab is a better spot to check. I have the EFT and have played it 12 games (ballpark 1-2h per game), and dont really want to play more with it due how horrifically bad the radar is, alongside a host of VR issues in the EFT specifically. I also dont having anything else of interest to grind in the German tree atm, so I dont see much reason in using a plane that is both a headache to play and has no ulterior value in me playing it any more than I already have.

As for the Rafale, I will have it in the next 24h.

@SpectreXXI

and the problem with Rafale stats being exponentially better than every other aircraft is due to the fact France almost rarely get mirrored

That’s a horrible argument, what you are actually stating here is “no wonder the Rafale does so well, it doesn’t have to face Rafales”

@SpectreXXI

If French player is on the losing side, but the French player still at least maintain a good K/D, this still will contribute to the great K/D of Rafale.
If the French player is on the winning side but also don’t maintain a good K/D either because he’s already dead from AMRAAM Spam, or the AMRAAM Spam of his team is already racking up much kill, and he didn’t get the spoil. So, still contributing to great winrate of Rafale.

Everything you said skews the data in favor of the Rafale would also skew the data i favor of the Italian F-2000A, and yet, despite having less games played (10948 vs 1974 games played) it has a lower KDR and lower KPG than the Rafale, with a slightly higher WR (1.12% higher). I generally consider the italian EFT stats outlier data (cuz they have so few games played comparatively) but still stated that at most you could claim the Rafale and EFT are performing roughly equally to be fair to your sides argument.

[SpectreXXI]

@MythicPi

I play almost exclusively in sim since about 1.5y now, so if you wanna see what top jets I’ve played, the sim tab is a better spot to check. I have the EFT and have played it 12 games (ballpark 1-2h per game), and dont really want to play more with it due how horrifically bad the radar is, alongside a host of VR issues in the EFT specifically. I also dont having anything else of interest to grind in the German tree atm, so I dont see much reason in using a plane that is both a headache to play and has no ulterior value in me playing it any more than I already have.

As for the Rafale, I will have it in the next 24h.

Well I also don’t play Sim either, but average War Thunder player are playing Realistic Battle which determine much how a vehicle would be balanced, obviously Rafale are more even dangerous in Sim, but again this is for another story.

@MythicPi

That’s a horrible argument, what you are actually stating here is “no wonder the Rafale does so well, it doesn’t have to face Rafales”

Well that’s not just my argument, that’s Gaijin BS Matchmaking, mirrored nation is the true victim of stats skewing since they exist at both team. This just not applied to France, but also to Israel, Italy, Britain, Sweden, etc.

@MythicPi

Everything you said skews the data in favor of the Rafale would also skew the data i favor of the Italian F-2000A, and yet, despite having less games played (10948 vs 1974 games played) it has a lower KDR and lower KPG than the Rafale, with a slightly higher WR (1.12% higher), which is why I generally consider the italian EFT stats outlier data (cuz they have so few games played comparatively) but still stated that at most you could claim the Rafale and EFT are performing roughly equally.

Well Italian EFT have slightly lower K/D than Rafale is also because of like I said before (but applied to Italian Playerbase), maybe these Italian Player when trying to get a kill their team already do the works making these Italian EFT don’t get a share of kill. Also, I don’t claim Rafale and EFT are performing roughly equal but more of EFT perform better simply because of team composition (Here’s a reflection, I rarely see Rafale being in the dominant composition of my team rather than mix of EFT). And because of this team composition, it doesn’t really matter which country performs better. That’s why I said that major nation suffers from Bad Winrate and K/D. For the records, Rafale performs better in statistic, but in an average match, it’s contestable since it also had to hard carry the US/German main that hopefully aren’t stupid, while the British or Italian EFT which also had the numbers than Rafale, makes more impact to the tide of the match thanks to AMRAAM. Something that MICA can’t have, and you need at least reach 10 KM to make MICA performs well at BVR, but at that altitude, AMRAAM also exponentially better.

And to make it back to the topic, I don’t mind if AMRAAM also get its historical range in exchange for MICA also get its historical range. This artificial gimping only favours the majority playerbase, which at the end of the day, EFT wins (no matter which country) simply because they are more in composition of team rather than Rafale, if Rafale playerbase was so big, France already get mirrored, but as of today, we rarely see France getting mirrored. Unlike China, before J-10, this country never gets mirrored.

[MythicPi]

@SpectreXXI

but average War Thunder player are playing Realistic Battle which determine much how a vehicle would be balanced

Hence why I only covered RB stats and didnt touch on sim stats.

@SpectreXXI

Well that’s not just my argument, that’s Gaijin BS Matchmaking, mirrored nation is the true victim of stats skewing since they exist at both team. This just not applied to France, but also to Israel, Italy, Britain, Sweden, etc.

And yet of those nations, the Rafale is still the best performing jet. The statement doesnt not make any sense, the Rafale performs best of ALL jets, not just better than mirrored nations.

@SpectreXXI

maybe these Italian Player when trying to get a kill their team already do the works making these Italian EFT don’t get a share of kill.

You’re starting to shoot arrows and draw bullseyes around where they land now.

The facts are the Rafale has the best stats of all jets from the available numbers. You can argue that you dislike TS stats or whatever, but I’m briging hard numbers and you’re bringing hypotheticals convenient to your position, thats just refusing to see the facts.

[mid0ri]

It seems to be getting unnecessarily cluttered like the Rafale thread a while back lol

[SpectreXXI]

@MythicPi

And yet of those nations, the Rafale is still the best performing jet. The statement doesnt not make any sense, the Rafale performs best of ALL jets, not just better than mirrored nations.

You can’t just compare an aircraft that is good on statistics because of no other nation have it, the stats will be biased towards Rafale simply no one have Rafale other than France. I take M2K-5F as other example, before the Dance of Dragons update, only France that have M2K-5F, and after the update, China also getting it, and now as of today despite China being mirrored, but because of more player who played M2K-5F are from France, the stats tend to be biased to Chinese M2K.

@MythicPi

The facts are the Rafale has the best stats of all jets from the available numbers. You can argue that you dislike TS stats or whatever, but I’m briging hard numbers and you’re bringing hypotheticals convenient to your position, thats just refusing to see the facts.

Questioning a statistic is crucial for drawing an objective takes, you overlook the fact that despite the high number of Rafale be played last month, France still not getting mirrored, of course these statistics will biased to France being good. Mirrored or not mirrored is a crucial factor for this stats, that’s why again, the Italian Statistics being also much-much better due to the fact these kind of stats favour the minor one. You can’t conclude a raw statistic to a complex problem.

[mid0ri]

I don’t look kindly on people who use stats to unnecessarily overrate performance.

Certain people almost always use statistics to evaluate French equipment, but when you take out the bubbles, all you see is equipment that performs much worse than other countries.

Even if their intentions aren’t actually that way, their behavior makes it clear that they hate France.

[ARK_BOI]

go use MICA and compare to AMRAAM then come back here and tell it still competitive

[MotorolaCRO]

Yeah, MICA being the best at closer ranges while being on par in BVR is far from being just competitive.

[_OceanFish]

It is not on par on bvr i have no clue what you are on, even an unnerfed mica will never be on par with the aim120.

[MotorolaCRO]

Unnerfed would come much closer while retaining closer range dominance.

[_OceanFish]

It would be usuable in bvr yes, typhoon and f15e would still win if they launched their missile at the same time (For the same launch speed when you can get an higher one than the rafale with both f15e and eurofighter) and even up to 10 sec after in some case and have time with how low energy there would be in the mica to dodge it.

[D4nger_CLO5E]

It’s LITRALLY NOT at ALL…have you been testing and playing on the Dev Server??? If you were you would know because of the flight performance of the Su-30SM even with the 77-1 it will still be out BVR’d by the 15E and EFT.

In a 15 degree climb to 5000 Meters the 30SM is barely at Mach 1…the 15E in the same climb is just clearing Mach 1.25…and once they level out and build speed it takes the 30 FOREVER to reach Mach 1.45, you can hit 1.50 but in the context of a match you NEVER will because the faster things beat you in time to climb by a good margin and you will need to start defending…the 15E hits 1.6+ like it’s EASY MODE!

Now…Yes the MICA should be 100% un nerfed!

The F18 suffers the same thing as the 30 but WORSE…in level flight at 5000 meters it’s hard to push it over 1.23 Mach…you can get it to 1.30…but again it takes FOREVER!

On the deck the 18C Late won’t brake 1.06 Mach…all Mods!

The 30SM on the deck tops out at 1.19 Mach

15E Max 1.25 on the deck

[ARK_BOI]

F-15E maybe but EFT if radar still in that state? definitely not so bright

@D4nger_CLO5E

Now…Yes the MICA should be 100% un nerfed!

yeah, it still has shorter range than AMRAAM but not this ugly like in the game

@D4nger_CLO5E

The F18 suffers the same thing as the 30 but WORSE…

well, if that the case RIP my beloved Gripen i guess it similar to F-18 but with less missile

[D4nger_CLO5E]

I think there was some talk about the EFT radar being fixed??? I hope so!

[MythicPi]

@SpectreXXI

You can’t just compare an aircraft that is good on statistics because of no other nation have it

You cant just handwave statistics just because you dont like what they say.

@SpectreXXI

Questioning a statistic is crucial for drawing an objective takes

Fabricating whatever explanation is most convenient to you is not drawing an objective take. Its just being biased.

Ive already stated that the stats show the Rafale is either the best aircraft in the game, or tied for best with the EFT if we really wanna be lenient towards the Rafale. Therefore, it is reasonable to believe the Rafale (and in this case the MICA) is no more deserving of a buff/fix than any other top tier jet or missile currently in-game, and is quite frankly one of, if not the least deserving of said buff.

It stands to reason that the most reasonable thing to do is wait and see how the Su-30SM and R-77-1 influences the meta before going forward with buffs/fixes to competitor aircrafts/missiles.

If this isnt an objective take, idk what is.

Spoiler

You arent actually bringing any facts to the discussion, so I dont see any more reason to continue debating this with you, you clearly have no intention on changing your position. If you have new reliable data to disprove the above assessment of the Rafale and MICA’s comparative performance in-game, I am ready and willing to discuss it and potentially change my stance on the subject, but fabricated explanations will get you nowhere.