Sure the difference is just the quality of government.
Very likely as in theres a limit to “metal plate go boom” so its not that hard to figure out for technologically superior militaries especially considering that a lot of the ammunition mentioned in this thread is more modern than Relikt
The US did actually experiment with heavy ERA as can be seen with this patent. Most of NATO chose NERA and SLERA over it. Mind you the concept of heavy ERA isn’t hard to understand or hard to replicate.
For the matter of fact - you can make one at home for quite cheap.
If anyone wants to do the math they can plug in the dimensions of a kontakt 5 and the M829A3 penetrator to dunk on US bros. There are plenty of research papers on this subject.
It’s not metal plate go boom. The boom launches the flyer plate to disrupt the projectile in flight.
Yes we all know how flyer plates work. Now tell me do you know what breakaway tips and segmented penetrators are? You know the things specifically created to counter flyer plates from heavy ERA? And are features of M829A3,M829A4, DM53,DM83 etc
I handed you the math.
Long rod projectiles above certain proportions and velocity are harder to deflect and require different explosive delays and thickness to defeat.
Breakaway tips and segmented penetrators are just tweaks to adjust the timing of the interaction.
make rod long
make long thicc
take rod and poke hole in ERA
The Russians did the same with their long rod 3BM60 and they should know how to make it right. They have ERA on their tanks.
You’re downplaying how effective breakaway tips and segmented penetrators are. In fact there are plenty of simulations showing this where your math fails to account for them. You also do realize the west has examples of K5 and Relikt so we can literally test if our newest shells can penetrate.
Well if they made it “right” they did a terrible job considering it performs worse than pretty much every NATO shell and even your math should show you that.
Some blue on blue action right here.
If it wasn’t clear I agree that the M829A3/A4 can penetrate just like the documents and patents I provided earlier in the thread stated. I am providing additional data that proves that long rod penetrators are effective versus the known quantity of kontakt 5 ERA.
Will check fire…
Apologies from your wording I thought you were arguing against it
and yet the west didnt manage to produce anything better than Blazer or Rise.
if it works, it makes it viable. I mean, the shotguns are a cavetech yet they are the best personel can have against FPV. So…
yes, thats why its only natural to call it a day only after it would show itself against the real ammunition, but not a day before that.
uuuuuuuuuuugh i tend to agree with that but i can be sent to jail because of that so lets call it even. Especially with the Bradley production being even started
they thought so after creating HEAT shots, that the KE ammunition would fade away, and look where we are now. Its purely an empty discussion till the point some agency would make an independent investigation of capabilities of that, or until it`ll meet at real battle.
oh i saw that one, thats an interesting concept for sure!
But it never went field testing or even a prototype phase if im not mistaken, so its just a concept
False, because things like the Azur, PSO, TUSK and TES kits exist.
Furthermore, NATO went heavy into shaped composite and NERA, which is just better than any amount of ‘anti-KE’ ERA, especially from the russians
In the 1960s sure, but literally everyone has been re-investing in composite and KE protection since the late 70z, moot point
them arent ERA tho, they are NERA. Which is completely separate way of doing armor. USSR also has NERA put in the turrets of the MBTs but the externals are mostly covered with ERA.
so thats why the sides of Abrams with “ahti-HEAT”-only NERA look much bigger and weight much more than USSRs “useless” NERA?
Okay boomer
uugh not so much? They mostly started it after the M1A1 which had NERA deigned mostly for KE protection rather than HEAT one, which was 80s
And in 70s them still used the HEAT-ish as main threat, hence the MBT-70s spaced armor or the XM-1 weak against KE armor.
NATO ERA is designed for maximal protection against CE Warheads, especially in an urban environment, thickness doesn’t equate to performance in this case since they aren’t composite blocks.
There is little to no irl evidence from conflicts & non-russian testing that indicates anti-KE ERA is remotely as effective as claimed
Extremely flawed experimental projects ≠ actual doctrinal decisions, there is a reason that the KPZ was a colossal failure, and the XM-1 which won the competition had early composite in the turret face
I agree with that, tho they are what further became the MBT of the nation. I think you wont doubt that the XM1 became the M1 and increased the protection, but most was still against HEATs.
still, the ARAT pack consisting with NERA + ERA is basically same as Blazer + Nera and ERA there works as a “first defence line”. So not much new? ig
exactly why there is no reason calling it otherwise - there is no testing to begin with. Same goes for the M829A4s - no testing provided but from the producers which are biased on that question.
Im not a big keen of the Relikt ERA being hugely protective against kinetic, tho there were no proof of otherwise.
Russia still protect machinery much against HEAT and doing so pretty logically - i mean, look at what they throw at T-80s and T-90s at Ukraine. Mostly the HEAT and that protection works well. Exactly why Abramses got the TUSK kit - because anti-tank measures are mostly HEAT still.
I guess the Relikt has better work against KE shots than Kontank, thats for sure. But is it worth to protect against most modern APFSDS? Its a question with no real answer until…
So, who’s going to tell him?
Agreed, it’s good to approach these uber modern systems with a lot of nuance, however i’m heavily leaning towards the development of KE projectiles over that of Anti-KE ERA
i believe that the Relikt as a plate itself wont work for sure. However the entirety of the two packs of it being added on the sides + “current angles” (or how they are called in enghish? im not realy sure) OR the relikt + basic NERA packs of the tank hull or turret armor? Its a question if that shot can surpass both.
This, it’s all of the factors combined that defeats the rounds. Most of the research papers I’ve read indicate that over 67ish degrees is a big factor in this. But once you dip under 65ish the plates aren’t really effective.
This is the paper you want to look at if you are wondering about defeating KE with ERA
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S2214914724001144
Its a legit source surprisingly