M8 scott (37mm M6), Chinese "make do" light tank

Suggestions Ground
1
[Would you like to see this in-game?]
  • Yes
  • No
0 voters

caid’s suggestion #154

I would like to suggest a quite mysterious tank, the M8 Scott with 37mm M6 gun

this picture is just clear enough to allow the identification of the tank. it’s an M8 HMC which retains the usual part of the M8 HMC only the tank was converted into a light tank
just like the LVT(a)4 M6 suggested by @DMYEugen the M8 Scott was modified the same way to provide the Chinese PLA a light tank capable to fight the KMT for a potential invasion of Taiwan. shortage of ammunition and weapons makes it natural for China to put together everything that is left at their disposal. supplies of foreign weaponry were limited from 1945 to 1949 for both sides. which forced them to rely on WW2 material left in China. notably the M8 Scott who saw service from 1948 in China. with the exile of the KMT to Taiwan, China PLA captured many of those tanks. needing a proper light tank to match the M5 light tank, China started to convert the turret of the M8 and LVT(a)4 into a light tank’s turret. the first conversion appears to date back to 1949 with a few of them made, mostly for the LVT (a) 4. but at least 1 captured M8 Scott had the same conversion and took part in the great training for the invasion of Taiwan in 1951.

the modification is rather rudimentary yet effective. the turret, originally open-top, received a roof. two support for machine-gun are installed on the side of the turret. the 75mm gun was removed and a 37mm M5 or M6 was installed in place of the main gun. the gun’s mantlet remains the same and the tank keeps the 75mm protective sleeve. the sleeve receives a cap at the end to protect the gun properly and voila. China got a proper light tank which is unique to them.

This picture below is Photoshopped to show what it might look like in-game.

the tank didn’t saw a substantial service and was surely not build in number. China tends to not disclose any information about its armament since WW2 (and even before) which makes it hard to say exactly when this tank was built, when it was withdrawn, and what happened to it. by 1951, China started to introduce the T-34-85. this tank was at that time matching the M8 and made it obsolete. In the 60s, China also introduced its production of tanks. notably the Type 59, Type 63, and Type 62. The large number of those tanks was deemed to make China withdraw the obsolete tanks and likely scrap them.

Firepower
the firepower of this tank will be pretty decent. it was armed with a 37mm, either the M5 or M6 tank gun salvaged from the other tanks. the ammunition load is unknown. there is no evidence the elevation would be changed from the HMC M8 which would allow the tank an exceptional -20° to +40° vertical angle. the traverse speed is also bad. this is due to the manual rotation mechanism. ingame we have 6°/sec for the M8 Scott and 12°/sec for the M8A1. and I guess the M8A1 is more representative of what it should be. the turret has no coaxial. but a 2x machine gun is intended to be mounted on the outside support. In the picture ground on the video, only a machine gun is mounted. the identification of this machine-gun couldn’t be made but it seems to be a 12.7 or a 14.5mm HMG of unknown type. the machine gun on the right side which is missing is usually a 7.62mm M1919. As we can’t identify the left machine gun, I will let Gaijin decide which they see fit. I would suggest a 12.7mm M2HB on the left and a 7.62mm M1919A4 on the right. besides, the LVT(a)4 had the same turret and was seen carrying those and the machine gun is interchangeable. this will give the tank a real kick to make up for the slow turret rotation

Mobility
the mobility of this tank will be pretty good. the tank is powered by the Twin Cadillac Series 42 which provides 296 hp at 3400 rpm. the weight is unknown but the tank should be a bit heavier than the HMC M8 Scott which is 15.7 tons. I guess 16 tonnes is not a bad guess. this keeps the tank with a power-weight similar to the HMC M8 and since the mechanic is all the same, the top speed will not be changed. the top speed of 64.37 km/h (40 miles/h) is very fast. the reverse speed reaching 16 km/h is also pretty good. the tank will be one of the most mobile of the low ranks.

protection
the protection is essentially the same as the HMC M8 Scott. the main difference is a cap added to protect the gun and the much-needed roof for the turret. the thickness of those parts is unknown. I would assume it was somewhere between 6 and 10mm. there are some of those turrets still existing on the LVT(a)4 which makes it possible to check the thickness of those 2 parts. the turret retained the original HMC M8 sleeve for the 75mm. a 37mm replaces the 75mm but inside the sleeve, there might be some space which could be a small weakness against APHE or HE. but I doubt AP rounds would have a direct line to one of the crew. the overall protection of the tank is pretty decent and comparable to the M3A3. the crew includes 4 men. No smoke is known to be attached to this tank.

Source Since this tank is rather obscure, I can’t find more than a single source of his existence and it’s not even talking about it specifically…

the tank

the M8 HMC (primary sources)

37mm M6 gun

37mm M5 gun

in bonus, here is a LVT(a)4 with the same modification, it’s still preserved to this day (two of them appear to have been preserved)

5 Likes
2

this tank is one of the few unique early Chinese tanks. adding it would definitively make the early Chinese rank look a lot less copy-paste and much more Chinese. it would have a performance close to the M3A3 only the 12.7mm would be a big asset in the low rank. the protection is good for a light tank, but his mobility makes it the most interesting.

3 Likes
3

+1 for this unique vehicle at br 2.0

2 Likes
4

It pains me that all of these unique Chinese low-tier tanks were passed up in favor of asset flips. +1 along with all the others.

1 Like
5

Going by the picture I’m assuming its likely just a Locally Produced/licensed DshK

1 Like
6

possibly, but there are few visual details about this gun. still, it’s a HMG for sure. i would go with an M2HB which is well known for the model in-game. It is known that the LVT (a) 4 with the same turret and the same modification had the M2HB, so it would not be wrong to give it.

7

I have never seen this before despite being a fan of obscure low tier Chinese possibilities.
Very interesting!

2 Likes
8

Until recently this one was also unknown. it was thanks to @HugeBunny that I found out about this vehicle.

2 Likes
9

this one was obscure and I am not surprised Gaijin didn’t add it. it was probably just unknown to them
the LVT(a)4 with the same modification is also something that people often do not know. so there too I am not so surprised.
some vehicles probably needed more information such as the Renault ZB and the CHi-Ha SPG

but other tanks such as the M10 with Type 91 howitzer, and LVT with zis-3 are purely a decision. I can’t assume they just didn’t know about it. if they knew about the LVT Zis-2 they most knew about those ones too

here is a summary of the addition and what might be needed for the Chinese lowest-rank in order to make it more unique

T-26 1935 - no additional info needed
T-26 1937 - no additional info needed
Type-70-I SPH - no additional info is needed * no suggestion made
M10 SPH type 91 - no additional info is needed
Wang Chen 2 - no additional info is needed
Gongchen - no additional info is needed

Renault ZB (13.2) - ammunition load and elevation needed (guesswork is acceptable)
LVT(a)-4 (M6) - ammunition load needed (guesswork acceptable)
M8 (M6) - ammunition load needed (guesswork is acceptable)
Chi-Ha SPG - weight specification needed (guesswork is acceptable)
LVT-4 Zis-3 - ammunition load needed (guesswork is acceptable)
M3 Type 94 - ammunition load needed (guesswork is acceptable) * no suggestion made
M3A3 (12.7) - weight specification, ammunition load needed (guesswork is acceptable)

132 light tank (1959) - gun information, armor information *there is an existing survivor for additional Info
Renault ZB (47) - gun information, ammunition load, and elevation needed
SU-76 Light tank - gun information, ammunition load, armor information * no suggestion made
M4A2 No 012403 - gun information, ammunition load, * no suggestion made

2 Likes
10

Didn’t tank encyclopedia wrote that this one have a dummy gun for parade? Plus with only 1 pic and 0 any other info i doubt gaijin would added it, maybe somewhere deep in the ccp archive there might be some info tho.

1 Like
11

Tank encyclopedias are not a good source at all. they sometimes make information out of thin air. they are at the origin of many reasons why people have to fill so many bug reports for the game. especially before they started to rewrite everything. i had to fill dozens of bug reports to correct the information that Gaijin used and the only source that stated the same was TE. almost every other source and the primary sources stated the correct value. while being well known, that does not make them reliable.

the tank was not armed for a Parade, it was armed to fight the M5 light tank used by the Republicans. the gun was certainly the 37mm M6. recovered from an M5 light tank. here is a photo of what appear been the tank just before the work started.

The M4A2 appears without a gun. an M32 ARV next to it with the needed crane to easily remove the gun, and an M5 light tank next to it.


in 1949 China lacked of proper tank for the fight. that goes on both sides. and there were a lot of tanks destroyed and disabled on the battlefront. most were WW2 tanks, Neither the Nationalists or the Communists received much supply from the rest of the world.
Imgur

during that time, the communists were still considering invading Taiwan. In their mind, the war was not over in 1949. Taiwan had a fairly good number of M5 light tanks at that time which was one of the best tanks fielded in China back then (the M4 was not common) and the communists had specifically modified the M8 of this suggestion and LVT(a)-4 to allow them to have the firepower to fight the M5 light tank.
they would surely not pass on a perfectly working tank that was just missing a gun when there was a lot of 37mm perfectly working on wreckage. the Japanese 37mm was just too weak and the ammunition was starting to be rare in 1949. the American 37mm still had plenty of ammunition as they were used on many tanks and many field guns. the American 37mm had all the advantages needed. it had the firepower, the ammunition stockpile was there, the guns were available in large numbers and the gun was fitting.

as part of the barrel remained and was just saw-off, the recoil system needs to be completely inside the turret behind the mantlet. which would immediately eliminate the Japanese guns whose recoil system is too long and the barrel too short. the theory of the gun being a Japanese gun is coming from the shadow of the picture which almost looks like the shape of the recoil system under the Type 94 gun.

but this is an illusion due to the angle of the photo and the background. As we can see, it has about as much space over the gun as under the gun. which the Type 94 does not have, most of the recoil cylinders add a triangular shape under the barrel. besides, we know that the 75mm barrel was still there, it was just sawed off. probably to not leave a hole open and keep a part of the support for the 75mm to simplify the gun. also, the 37mm Type 94 and almost all the Japanese guns were too weak to engage other tanks and as mentioned, the ammunition stockpile was mostly depleted after 4 years of intense war without new supplies. if it was a type 94, the barrel would have barely come out of the 75mm. which is not what we see in this picture.

the 37mm M6 however is a perfect match. the barrel been longer would have come out long enough to match the picture on the Parade.

little information are found and the Chinese archive management was terrible before 1970. but still, considering the Reality of 1949, the fact the tank survived, the fact similar modification was made on other tanks, the fact the tank is exposed next to similar modification, and the fact the gun was available and matched the picture, and the fact there is a picture taken just before the modification which shows the M4A2 without a gun, the M32 ARV and M5 light tank next to each other in scenery that look to be a preparation of the modification, allow me to be sure the gun was a 37mm M6. I would say the probability is around 80%. I am willing to risk 100 USD over it.

also, notice that Tank Encyclopedia didn’t even consider the possibility the gun was an American gun. despite knowing about the picture and seeing the LVT(a)4 modified next to it in the Museum.

12

Very possible. Especially when you look at pictures such as this->

image
image1033×876 107 KB

Soldiers of the Mentougou district militia (China) with a Browning M2 on the carriage of a Soviet SG-43, some of the soldiers in the back are armed with Thompsons. The photo was taken during a drill in 1966->Posted on Reddit by r/ForgottenWeapons • 1 yr. ago Great_White_Sharky

However really doesn’t feel like it is an M2,
image
The more you dig into it that is.

1 Like
13

the issue is the absence of a Gas tube under the barrel. This is essential for gas-operated machine guns. which the DHSK is. it’s the little tube under the barrel. without it, the gun can’t fire in automatic and would be bolt action.

the M2HB is a recoil-operated machine gun. it does not need the gas tube.

there were a dozen machine guns in service in China in 1951. but very few had no gas tube. The muzzle might just be attached to it and part of another gun for some reason.

14

I’m still not hellbent on believing its an M2H. But i guess it more or less just depends on if we can scavenge more info on what the heck it really is.

15

the only other option would be the 14.5 mm KPVT without sleeve. which is what I used for the Photoshop model. but it’s unknow if china had it in 1950

1 Like
16

The addition of even half of these would make China so much more appealing to new players. I REALLY want the Type 70-I SPH. The SU-122 is a total beast, and though that wouldn’t have the same armor, the gun would do even MORE damage as it’d have to be at a lower BR due to less protection.

1 Like
17

Well china did have the Type 56 Chinese 14.5mm Towed Anti-Aircraft Gun in 1949
image
So it is safe to assume they did other wise something like this probably wouldn’t have existed.

1 Like
18

adding them would only do china justice.

I would not mind if they dedicate a major up-date to just focus on the Chinese low rank and make it right. there are some very interesting tanks there. the 132 for example has a weak gun which I assume has the performance of the 76.2mm Type 54 which was a Chinese copy of the Zis-3 but with a stabilizer and rangefinder. it also has pretty good mobility and some armour which is probably just a bit better than the M24.

it could be a replacement for the T-34-76 which China never had. the one found in China was an ex-Korean tank sent to China for repair. As China was replacing the Korean T-34 with their tank while they were been repaired, the end of the Korean War probably just made Korea not care about the tanks that were sent for repair when the replacement was more powerful. the russian sell record confirmed that all T-34 was armed with 85mm

1 Like
19

the Type 56 was licensed and built in China in 1956. it’s unknown (but not impossible) if they had the Russian gun before 1956. online it was said the Type 56 was in service in 1949 which makes no sense as it was not licensed. it might be the Russian who provided the guns from 1949 and the license was set in 1956

20

This seem like a wip suggestion post, can’t wait to see it lol. Also i do have my doubt that if this is 1949 and the PLA even welded makeshift storage box behind it, i couldn’t see why they couldn’t just do some funky stuff to get a 37mm in there.
Also also, do you have any info on what ammo the PLA would used for their 37mm?

1 Like