M1A2 series...turret armor

You heard me. I’m going to talk about the turret armor (and the hull armor :)) of the M1A2s. shocker I know. But to be clear, it’s pretty bad. Now of course there will be players who have the Ariete saying: “but my tank has NO turret armor.” that will be addressed here as well. To preface this here are my stats just so people can’t claim: “Murica main skill issue just get gooder clickbaiter skill issuer!”








As we can see from the screenshots the Strv 122, and the whole Leopard 2A5 and up family have superior turret protection. In addition, all Strv 122s and the 2A7 type tanks have spall liners, which no Abrams has. Additionally from the pictures we can see that the Ariete’s off angle protection is actually comparable to the M1A2s. The Leopard family off angle protection is far greater than the M1A2s despite their armor actually being thinner in that area, with a 35+230+45 array, and the M1A2s having a 19+300+101 array, so the KE and CE multiplier for the Leopards is extremely superior to the Abrams. Some might say: “But the Abrams has a 5 second reload, a whole second faster, which means it’s just as good but in the firepower category.” Maybe? I only have one US tank with an aced crew, and it is the M1A2. Still others might say: “I see the Gotland emblem on your Strv, why do you care about the American tech tree? Wouldn’t you rather just use your superior tanks to stomp bad US mains?” Not really. I’d rather both tech trees have competitive vehicles to fight with, I haven’t played the US tech tree outside of ground sim to spawn an F-16C since I got the Strv 122s. They’re just not good. The minor difference in reload compared to the huge differences in armor and spall liners enable the Strv 122s to do hull down, and cqc combat unlike the M1s which have to rely on ambush as their turret and hull armor will not be able to survive a hit.

I am aware that many sources have been found regarding the Abrams family armor for the M1A2 and up. I do not believe that the “No DU in the hull, only in SEPv3.” argument is valid because we do not know if NGAP has DU in the first place, but even if there is no(? after 2006) DU in the hull that is not grounds to dismiss every single armor improvement strategy. I have seen a budget justification from 2002 or 2004 that was for a large hull and turret armor improvement program, among others. So we know that the armor was improved incrementally between the M1A2, (which is still not accurate and based on the Swedish export trials) and the SEPv2. If the Abrams had a 840-900mm turret face and 800 for 64 degree sides due to the thicker armor array, and maybe a 550-630 hull from the 32+360(?)+101 array, vs the 727 for the Strv 122’s 35+520+45 array, then it would be a, like the 122, very good vehicle, and I might play them again. Until then they are just going to collect dust.

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Crickets in the comments because the usual problem players who respond to anyone asking for Abrams improvements with: “YOU ARE JUST A SKILL ISSUER GET GOODER MURICA MAINER CLICKBAITER!” can’t do that to someone who doesn’t even have an HC Clickbait and has a 2.5+ k/d on their tanks.

A bit of satire here but I had to do it for the rhyme.

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Unlike most posts talking about the Abrams armor issues, this is quite well organized. Good job! (insert thumbs-up emoji)

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Thank you!

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I agree with Bombay! A well-structured well-written post, despite me not playing toptier tanks.

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First off, the Abrams has the best firepower of top tier MBTs, with one of the best rounds and the 5 seconds reload (which is the same or better than most others, you do NOT need aced crew to beat Russian or Chinese reload).
Secondly, Abrams has good depression, reverse, and can compete very well in a hull-down position or urban combat. I am puzzled as to why you show the turret armour from a 45 degree angle, as any competent player using hull-down tactics will have their enemies within a ±30 degree angle, in which the Abrams turret will be impenetrable except for the small breach area.
Actually, the Abrams’ armour, which is often believed to be poor by US mains, is middling instead. It is certainly better than ZTZ-99A, Leclerc, Merkava, Ariete, Type 10, and Challenger. You are comparing it primarily with the top MBTs.
And although the Abrams doesn’t have spall liners, its survivability is still better than most tanks at top tier. It has 4 crew, spaced widely apart; the only spot capable of reliably one-shotting it is the turret ring, and even that fails to volumetric often; the tank has all ammunition in a blowout panel. In fact, it is quite excellent.

Seeing as you compare it mostly with the best tanks at top tier, the 2A7 and family, makes you out to be one of the people who only plays the best. Well, I’ve shocking information for you: Not all of the tanks you play have to be in the top 10% of the BR bracket. You are disappointed in an above-average vehicle. Bizarrely, so much so that you refuse to play it.

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One of the many, many, many bug reports about the Abrams is that the Improved Turret Side Armor package hasn’t been modeled yet, so this is extra inaccurate.

Yup, here’s some more stuff about the Budget Justifications, as well as the general timeline of the M1A1/M1A2 armor upgrades:

1989 GAO Report

The United States General Accounting Office finds that the Army cannot add additional armor to the M1A2 yet, but that they do have plans to add the extra armor as weight reduction programs are carried out (over 3 tons’ worth). The weight reductions are planned from 1990 to FY1993/1994.

1992 Swedish Trials

Non-DU export armor packages were shown to have ~350mm KE in the hull and ~600mm KE in the turret, with an additional Swedish version having some applique armor.

1992 BRL Report

image

BRL put forward a proposal hull armor for the M1A2 (that contextually includes DU) that improved KE protection by 35% and CE protection by 25%.

1997

The first NRC document (as far as I can tell) allowing for 5 total DU hulls for M1A1s is made (can’t find the specific image in my profile, but it’s there somewhere).

1999-2001 Greek Trials

The export package is explicitly stated to be worse than the domestic package.

FY2004/2005

A new Frontal Armor Package shows up in the Budget Justifications, with blank code. It is notably different in name than the Improved Turret Side Armor, as it does not specify it only applying to the turret. There are estimated production dates.

FY2005, FY2006/2007

The new Frontal Armor package still has a blank code, this time without any estimated production dates.

February 2006

https://www.nrc.gov/docs/ML0605/ML060590665.pdf

The limit of 5 DU hulls is still in place, although it should be noted that the DU extends farther into the turret than War Thunder suggests (although War Thunder does not have any DU armor modeled).

August 2006

Amendment 2006 Hull Limit Removal 1

The limit on DU hulls is removed, just in time for the FY2004/2005 vehicles to be finished.

FY2008/2009

The new Frontal Armor Package gets a non-blank code, but still does not list estimated production dates.

2013

The Acquisition Costs by Weapon System presentation shows that the M1A1 SA modernization has improved hull armor, of which the only improvements shown in the budget justifications is the Frontal Armor Package (which is likely DU).

2017 M1 Abrams Main Battle Tank, Owners’ Workshop Manual

States that the M1A1 SA has DU armor in the hull, and that the SEPv2 had everything the SEPv1 and SA had (so SEPv2 has a DU hull).

Unknown Date

States that the M1A2 features hull and turret armor improvements.

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The above 山 田 凉 comment perfectly outlines what my original post was intending to correct. There is a very large gulf between the Abrams family capability in War Thunder, and the top performing vehicles such as the Leopard 2 family. I do not have the T-80BVM so I can not comment on it, but I’ve been told it is second to only the Leopard 2 family. Perhaps prior to the new module modeling update, I don’t know if the autoloader being modeled now made a large difference.

And the response is: “Yes but what about these tanks that have even worse armor? You should be happy with the status quo. You only play only the best vehicles” (my most played from the chart is the Leclerc S2). These are all the points I outlined in my original post. I’ve done the same for France. I think it may have been two or three years ago by now but I was advocating for better Leclerc armor and OFL 120F2 (which it still does not have yet, it should) then as well. I 23854 battles, I can assure you there is no “shocking information for you” here.

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I just had it pulled up, but there was someone who had translated one of the Greek Trials documents and said that even the non-DU export armor that the Abrams was going to be sold with was only second to the Leopard 2.

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So if you play the Leclerc and Abrams often, and want to realistically correct the Abrams, why insist on comparing its effectiveness mainly to 122B and 2A7? You could have made the post without any comparison (only including historical information and sources), and it would have been better.

Also, if you show your high amount of matches with Abrams and Leclerc, but then insist in the same post that you will not play the Abrams until they are increased in power, isn’t there a gap between your words and actions? This is all incredibly unnecessary.

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The Greek tank trials were five years after the Swedish ones, are the export armor results available there as well?

I just searched his profile, and he has 10x the amount of battles in Realistic compared to Simulator (the latter of which he chose to display his statistics in with an image) so it is even more puzzling.

I didn’t even notice that. Is he trying to hide his top played tank?

@actualsize123 @山_田_凉 Going after someone’s “skill”/service record is a logical fallacy. Facts are facts regardless of one’s service record. It is a very weak angle to try and make an argument, and just makes the attacker look bad.

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I didn’t realize it was sim and thought the dude hadn’t played the game.

Sorry if I misread your message or intent, I just see attacks and logical facilities almost every time this or similar issues are brought up. Attacks make reasonable and logical discussions very difficult. Cheers.

I have all the US tanks, and stopped playing ALL the Abrams completely after getting shot in the neck over, and over, and over, and over. I do fine with any other country’s MBT’s, except the Abrams. And the newest Abrams is TONS heavier, with 0 added armor. Regardless of US player’s skill, the Abram’s armors are not correct. Especially the gap around the turret ring, the turret is lifted up in game, when you can clearly see it is much lower in IRL pictures. .

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The player brought up his personal record himself, and used it extensively as part of his argument. His first picture shows his statistics, he argues that he plays Abrams and Leclerc extensively but now will not. To repeat, I did not bring up the topic of this user’s statistics, he did as part of his argument.

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