Leopards w/ spall liners are way too op

[_Renzo]

@J_ackal

It’s always a skill issue when something isn’t russian, ffs. Shooting the bvm in the breach (or even left/right of it) will kill both crew in the turret somehow most of the time.

What you describe here often happens with most tanks. This includes the Leopards. They really aren’t hard to deal with, in particularly with a well spalling round like the 125s.

Sure thee Leopard 2A5 and onwards pop less easily than an Abrams, Type 10, Leclerc or a chally when purely looking at breach shots, but they still die finely.

@J_ackal

People really like to cry about russian tanks despite not even being the best in the game, which makes it weird. Are they butthurt because of the war? Or something else

You were the one bringing the BVM up and crying about it, even if it’s still an extremely capable tank. But that is what happens when you only play 2 nations at top tier ground, you get a very limited view on things.

[J_ackal]

Literally my experience playing it. The breach doesn’t absorb any spall, it even creates more (when not even hit directly)

[J_ackal]

I play 2.5 nations on top tier ground. First I don’t have unlimited time to grind everything. Secondly, only usa,ussr and germany have actual top tier worthy vehicles, maybe japan is the exception and im not counting the copy paste in sweden

[MuricaxSuffers]

you have to be kidding, shooting the breach on any ru tank creates 0 spall 9 from 10 times

@FurinaBestArchon

I’ll wait for you to post the part of the code for BVM’s breach which includes the spall modifier in that case ;)

won’t happen…^^

Ru magic, everyone knows russian gunbreaches are made of rubber and just absorb the penetrator lol

[Tristacomand]

@Thodin

I still don’t understand why Sweden still has the best Leopard 2, despite 2A7V is the second newest Ger version and Sweden still goes with almost 30 year old models.

Newer is newer, better is better. Newer is not better, better is not newer.

@x_Shini

we have proven that it is the exact same add on as the Strv 122 that riccochets… so yeah

Just did some checking in the protection analysis tool. Really seems for some reason PSO and 2A7V don’t ricochet like 122A/B/PLSS/+ do.

@x_Shini

to be fair, thats what rank 8 should have been, new vehicles that increase the power once again

Ironically it seems even slight tweaks have more or less the same effect.

I’m really left personally quite unsure how a real rank 8 (or our future rank 9) launch would look according to this idea. I’m just not sure how they can add some gradual change and not a huge leap. Would you really like Object 640 with 3 second autoloader coated in Relikt? It’s either T-80UD being added which is a sidegrade to T-80U in many ways or just going straight into prototype land. Or the Russian Federation equipment, again either sidegrades or extremely radical jumps.

I’m not really sure how well the technologies interact, seems like things will be decoupled.

I think if stuff was minmaxed and we’d have NATO civil war for a few BR brackets and then magic Soviet prototype land with Armata and whatever.

@x_Shini

use spanish avengers newset suggestion about armor values

I don’t think this is a good suggestion since it means abandonment of any pretense of neutrality and complete descent into History Channel tier wet dreams. Dominant historical or social narratives will prevail and they represent this “73 Easting” concept.

@FurinaBestArchon

How is that a contradiction?

@FurinaBestArchon

It’s pretty funny as well, German players warned everyone about the 2A7V

In this block of text you are stating how the tank can be better, I presume your bug reports mean you think it should be better and de-facto buffed to a standard no other tank is at. There aren’t other tanks that would offer the same protection as full D-tech 2A7V with its composites working as you believe they should.

You are also implying some kind of restraint on the larger mass of “Germany mains” whilst simultaneously acknowledging 2A7V is very strong and should be stronger. So is it “Germany mains are restrained and don’t want power creep.” or “Germany mains should have even stronger vehicles.”

Hopefully that clarifies.

@x_Shini

PSO needs hull spall liners and internal side composite as well, might make it more clear how it is an upgraded hull to you and not an old 2a4 hull or sth like that

I’m still not sure why PSO can’t be C-tech since it’s possible the PSO upgrades can be applied to an earlier batch of 2A5 or 2A6, but I’m no expert.

@J_ackal

Shooting the bvm in the breach (or even left/right of it) will kill both crew in the turret somehow most of the time.

This is completely true. All my experience shows BVM is nuked by shells landing near the turret roof or gun mantlet, somehow T-90M is even worse in this regard. I have learned that 3BM60 is something you don’t shoot a breach with.

Only reason I have games where I get 3+ kills in BVM or T-90M is because some Abrams and Leopard players insist on driving their entire vehicle out past a corner, their driver, commander and gunner lined up in a straight line for me like dominoes and they just patiently wait several seconds for me to shoot them in basically the only reliable oneshot posture I have on them, which they just gave to me through total skill issue.

Otherwise, for whatever reason (skill issue on my part perhaps) it’s straight to our spawn being guarded by Leopards and/or Abrams whilst F-16 Claus drops some nice presents on us.

[Jεcka]

@Tristacomand

Hopefully that clarifies.

Which it didn’t You talked a lot without explaining how it’s a contradition.

To explain it better;
“guys, the tank is good, we know it is good, but it can be much better and other vehicles should’ve come first points to dozens of actual 2A6 upgrades etc etc”.

A person can acknowledge something is good, maybe even too good if X gets ‘fixed’, but they can also warn people about it and/or say that it doesn’t exactly fit into the game yet.

[dotSHINI]

@Tristacomand

Just did some checking in the protection analysis tool. Really seems for some reason PSO and 2A7V don’t ricochet like 122A/B/PLSS/+ do.

PSO uses the same one, 2A7V ues a different one, the thing is it is from the same producer and the upgraded variant and somehow gajin wants to give it less capabilities

@Tristacomand

Newer is newer, better is better. Newer is not better, better is not newer.

in this case it is true, 2a7V literaly is the upgraded version supposed to increase armor effectiveness

@Tristacomand

I’m really left personally quite unsure how a real rank 8 (or our future rank 9) launch would look according to this idea.

more APS and higher defense system together with thermals and better rounds, literaly what the 2a7V, T90M are, french have access to better rounds as well same with usa etc

@Tristacomand

There aren’t other tanks that would offer the same protection as full D-tech 2A7V with its composites working as you believe they should.

Ehhh, 2A7HU will be a thing soon enough and be better because of RCWS, roof armor and the add on side armor

@Tristacomand

“Germany mains should have even stronger vehicles.”

equal or better then sweden, that is all to it, we just are annoyed at the untruth of them having the better leopards

@Tristacomand

I’m still not sure why PSO can’t be C-tech since it’s possible the PSO upgrades can be applied to an earlier batch of 2A5 or 2A6, but I’m no expert.

it is a different chassis, it never was a 2a5 or 2a6, it has internal side components added
the 2A6EX hull developed out of the Strv122 ones. The 2A6EX is the prototype of the greek and spanish 2E and 2HEL. It cant be applied to 2a5 or 6

[Tristacomand]

@FurinaBestArchon

Which it didn’t You talked a lot without explaining how it’s a contradition.

I will send one last message on this to avoid clogging the thread.

I believe you can either ask for historical buffs to 2A7V or you can be concerned about power-creep and balance. Because buffs to 2A7V, one of the strongest tanks, constitutes power-creep and would affect the balance in favour of the German tree at the expense of all other trees.

One would hope balance and history can exist simultaneously, I believe they can.

But in this moment, this patch, if the next patch fixed all the historical inaccuracies and bugs with German Leopard 2 tanks, without introducing equal capabilities to all other nations, it would be incompatible with balance.

[Jεcka]

@Tristacomand

I believe you can either ask for historical buffs to 2A7V or you can be concerned about power-creep and balance.

Nobody is trying to prevent “power-creep” or “imbalance”. The reason people report their vehicles is to that they can be better, BUT, they can warn other people about how potent X vehicle can/will be. These are are NOT contradictory.

without introducing equal capabilities to all other nations

Dude they don’t exist for most nations. The reality is that at least half of the current in-game nations will be left without vehicles in the future.

Japan has none left. China has turned towards export vehicles (and they’re only as good as the 99A anyways). France has the XLR left which is just an S21 with gen 3 thermals (and a better round if Gaijin deems it so). Russia is stuck with the T-90M for the foreseeable future. Sweden has also turned towards prototypes by this point, same with the British.

You see a pattern? Only 3 nations can “progress”. Germany, Italy & the US.

[dotSHINI]

@Tristacomand

constitutes power-creep and would affect the balance in favour of the German tree at the expense of all other trees.

then gajin needs to state how it is a balance decision specialy and not display the 2a7v worse then strv122, additionaly about how the 2a7v would be a lot stronger then the strv122, it only has the dm53 round the difference between the german and swedish round are minimal because you are supposed to shoot weakspots either way and the swedish round has perfect amount of penetration as well, else people wouldnt have complained how the 2a6 is so much weaker then the strv122 because armor still is king

[J_ackal]

@FurinaBestArchon

Subjective experience, eh?

I’ve played both, I don’t see what you mean

[aDSD]

@Tristacomand

T-64B

T-64BV currently has better hull armour than

@Tristacomand

T-80B

If T-80BV would have its actual hull armour and no thermals than I think it wouldn’t be as balanced.

[dotSHINI]

@aDSD

If T-80BV would have its actual hull armour and no thermals than I think it wouldn’t be as balanced.

got no problem with that, just give western tanks finaly their anti era round capabilities and we would pen either way

[ARK_BOI]

@Tristacomand

Actually 2A7V isn’t strong enough and needs to be even better.

Yes it should be stronger but not because favor but because it armor seem to be unfinish.

@Tristacomand

Yes, like I suppose how Tornado with 4 LGB can work quite well.

Gripen can do it better unlike tornado it can deal with both air and ground at the same time Tornado can’t (9M in ground RB are nastly)

[aDSD]

Except these rounds are non existent at that BR and T-80BV only has Kontakt-1?
lol

[Tristacomand]

@FurinaBestArchon

Dude they don’t exist for most nations.

I think that’s the point. Gaijin is trying to make sure basically all nations can fight at all BR, however misguided that effort is. It’s a noble idea. Whatever their mistakes or failures to execute, this is clearly their vision.

Gaijin is willing to implement prototypes like PSO and Challenger 3 or M247 or the litany of other not-adopted or not serially produced stuff, we will see how those go. 130mm and 140mm stuff or other proposals.

I don’t actually object to War Thunder becoming a more realistic WoT with loads of napkin tanks, they’re more interesting to me than this banal quibbling over document, pictures and reading the half correct information in lazily written secondary and tertiary literature which serves only to reinforce nationalist mythologies about the supremacy of their own gear.

Maybe Gaijin will never implement vehicles like Armata because simply put there just aren’t contemporaries which can deal with them.
They are very vulnerable in real life to infantry, artillery, planes, strategy, manuevers etc.
But in our game of 4km by 4km boxes where MBT’s slug it out day in day out, Armata would have no peers. Same for the litany of late 80’s and early 90’s Objects.

@x_Shini

then gajin needs to state how it is a balance decision

They sort of do this already by pointing out about the vagueness or quality of the sources brought forwards, they’re wriggling in the margins according to the information they have and their balance priorities.

@aDSD

If T-80BV would have its actual hull armour and no thermals than I think it wouldn’t be as balanced.

@x_Shini

got no problem with that, just give western tanks finaly their anti era round capabilities and we would pen either way

no way Объект 219РВ could be given a BR where it will fight DM63/73A1 or whichever. Would be just really difficult for lower BR modern tanks.

@ARK_BOI

Gripen can do it better unlike tornado it can deal with both air and ground at the same time Tornado can’t (9M in ground RB are nastly)

True. However JAS39 is new and LGB Tornado was about for ages, that was my point, we’ve only recently entered an era of CAS-Sweden.

AIM-9M are completely lethal anywhere.

[dotSHINI]

BV confused me , because it literaly doesnt exist in the game outside of an upgrade modification, besides that point still stands, ignoring that leo 2a4 did shoot DM53, it has worse internal armor composites then real life as well

[aDSD]

@Tristacomand

Объект 219РВ

no reason to say GRAU index lol.
Just say T-80BV, unless the vehicle discussed never had official name, like T-80A (unofficial name, only GRAU index Object 219A exists)
Not everyone knows GRAU indexes, and these can get complex.

[dotSHINI]

@Tristacomand

They sort of do this already by pointing out about the vagueness or quality of the sources brought forwards, they’re wriggling in the margins according to the information they have and their balance priorities.

Thats business talk, what is needed is a clear statement , else you get bullshit like you cant use ussr sources for nato equipment and then model stingers after iglas missle either

@Tristacomand

Armata would have no peers

ehhh the Armata isnt as strong as you think, there is a reason the russians in the russian forums only see it as equivalent to the Leoaprd 2A7V which should tell you sth

@Tristacomand

LGB Tornado was about for ages,

either way the tornado was implemented way to late, it has no reason to be added as cannon fooder for gen 4 jets

[ARK_BOI]

@Tristacomand

LGB Tornado was about for ages,

not been good at the start really most of the flight time on ground RB wasting on just turning to get another attack run i knew at the begin with it flying brick but didn’t expect to be that garbage and before them MiG-27K is king in CAS only to get dethrone by Harrier GR7