Neither the M1A1/2 Abrams or Leopard 2 should have a 5 second reload.
Both vehicles are excellent without the reload, giving them a 5 second makes balancing other top tier MBTs almost impossible.
Additionally, the Russian top tier reload buffs were unneeded.
Uparmored Leopards more than double the armor of the Abrams.
The Abrams’ ONE advantage over the uparmored Leopards is the rate of fire… and you want to take away from it even that?
What would be the point of the Abrams, then? A couple more km/h?
The 5 second reload is the ONE thing that makes the Abrams tanks stand out. Without it, they would be pointless compared to their Leopard counterparts.
I mean… it’s a 0.1 second improvement for T-90s and T-72s, and a 0.4 second improvement for T-80s that don’t use their best shell, but a worse one instead.
Did you miss the message where i said, you don’t rely on armour at top tier ? Or how leopard is the only tank, besides tanks with era, whose composites degrade over time( your turret cheeks can straight up fall from 2-3 hits) ?
Your armour will amount to nothing once you gets hit into lfp, killing all your 3 crewmen in a row, or the neck of your tank, or the side, the best course of action at top tier is to not be exposed, rather than relying on your armour tanking hits, especially armour as inconsistent as leopard one.
If the armour was so important, soviet and chinese mbts would be number 1 in the game(they aren’t)
You are simply putting too much emphasis on leo’s armour and survivability, when it’s not better by that much, in comparison to other top tier stuff, if even
gun depression doesn’t matter at top tier ? Abrams had better depression before, even 1 degree is really nice, but now its 7.4 vs 10, ooooffff(now abrams can actually sit hull down and be nigh impervious with its turret, while leo gets cucked, and needs to expose itself more, leaving more opening to get shot)
and yes, speed is very important at top tier, so abrams going faster in both forward and reverse, is actually really good, its both easier to get into a position in the beginning of the match, and run away in case of need( think this update even improves turbine engines on t80 and m1 series ?)
And speed, and survivability, and offense utility, and self-defense utility. Yeah, totally one advantage. Firepower and speed alone makes it a better tank.
makes sense. they are both leo 2 and brochures only do the basics, which fundamentally havent changed much since 2a4.
Ill use a vehicle family im very familliar with, CVR(T). The individual brochures for all the variants are almost indentical because the are the same base platform.
Images are for demonstration purposes only, these are designed to sell to ministers of national defense who cant tell their arse from elbow when it comes to tank variations so doesnt matter too much . the specification data is what matters in WTs context
just as an example, heres two revisions of Scorpion in the same brochure selling the tank to whoever may purchase.
Leopard 2A6MA3 when?
:)
You don’t “rely” on it, but it sure is better to be able to take a shot as oppossed to not being able to.
So “you don’t rely on armor”, but it’s a problem that it becomes weaker after 3 hits…? When I talk about armor advantage, I mean withstanding 1-2 stray shots or weakspot misses.
You think 1º is more relevant than twice the KE protection…?
BGAVGHGVYAHGHGBAHBAYAGAH, have you actually played the Abrams? The thing is crippled or killed by any shot not hitting the cheeks.
DM73 can be added right now and if we use the same Penetration Calculation we get roughly… 663mm penetration. Which honestly isnt that big of a Improvement and only certain vehicles with the L55A1 could use it.
I believe it’s excessive, but honestly, see, THIS, I would not opposse.
I believe it is time for 2020s tanks to start FEELING excessive in some ways. They need to feel on a different league from the 1990s MBTs, not the same but with a new coat of paint.
I wouldn’t mind start seeing;
-DM63A1 for Challenger 3 (TD) and Leopard 2PL.
-DM73 for the 2A7s and 2A8s.
-M829A4 for SEPv3 and SEPv3 Trophy.
-SHARD for Leclerc S.XXI and future XLR.
I mean it is excessive probably but in terms of actual Upgrades thats the only round you will get with a Penetration Increase, on DM63/DM63A1 the Penetration is in fact slightly lower (roughly on par with M829A3 ingame with the same calculations) since it is slower than DM53.
In fact we lose 30m/s with the L55.
Oh boy where to start with this mess of a Text.
Also as you are saying this… That Also means that Gaijin Developers cant tell the Difference between what Variant they are even Talking about since the Model at hand is Not a 2A8 but a 2A7+ and therefore The Entire Point of “It not being the Right Model” is Invalid with that one Brochure Because it Does not Talk about the Actual Leopard 2A8. Its Literally currently the Most incompetent Things the Developers have done so far and If you just mention a slightly different 2A8 it gets shot down But Show them A Completely Wrong Tank that isnt even Close with the Actual Leopard 2A8 with the Tag “Leopard 2A8” Its suddenly a Perfect Source? What Kind of Logic does that even have?
Personally speaking the Fact that Brochure was even Accepted in the First Place shows that the Developers have 0 Clue of what Variant they are even working on, Is it the Roll-Out one? Is it the Non Roll-Out One? Is it the one From 2012 so called Labelled “Leopard 2A8” (That term didnt even exist at the time)? Like Which one is it??
I want to be 100% Clear, The Fact that a Source that was once for the Leopard 2A7 was used to affect a Whole completely different Leopard 2 Series Says with how much Knowledge Gaijin has on the Leopard 2 (which is nothing at all). And I dont want to Spark more Arguments with this but this Entire Situation is just so incredibly stupid…
Crippled - yes, as literally any other tank after addition of turret basket
Killed - we are talking about survivability which implies you are not killed, which for abrams happens more often than to Leo as it has better survivability. Simply because it doesn’t have 3 crew members sitting in a death row and because of the fuel tanks that delay spalling moment much further into the hull, allowing crew members on the opposite side to survive.
You had faith in Gaijin or the CBR mods? especially the CBR mods, almost all of these issues have been their fault rather than actual gaijin staff. (no im not definding gaijin by saying that, its just a fair observation from dealing with the WT bug reporting system myself)
not even close.
Primary source is primary source. I dont know what any of the people crying about this are expecting for a vehicle that only got delivered to the first buyers a few months ago.
Considering the information about the 2a8 thats actually avalable i dont think this was a healthy time for it to come to the game yet at all with how gaijin adds vehicles. They arent going to tweak the vehicle as its specs become properly clear and confirmed, they havent done that with the sad excuse of a Challenger 3 “technology demonstrator”. Its better to wait for better and more consistent info to arrive.
Germany didnt need another rather similar MBT for top tier right now, it would not have gone a miss to await clearer information. If gaijin was hellbent on “germany needs a tank with APS” then im sure theres a 2a6 thats been a testbed for an APS somewhere.
You talk about Leopard’s 3 aligned crew members… but then fail to remember that the entire Abrams crew is also lined up and cramped in the middle?
You are just making up staff at this point lmao, it is as “cramped” as any other crew.
thats quite the strawman ngl.
not to mention that the abrams would be screwed from the turret basket, and on fire. both are dead
Every round’s muzzle velocity changes with the temperature… Some to a higher degrees than other but all are afected in some way
How is it a strawmaning?
Screwed but not dead
Phew, almost forgot FPE exists
How so? Abrams crew just survived.
Any shot into the neck, lower mantlet and glacis is a one-shot most of the times.
Also, now it’s just “as cramped as any other crew”? I’m confused, I thought it had super survivability pro max plus ultra or something.
You realize that people do… you know, finishing follow-up shots, right?
If, IF a tank survives a hit, but is crippled and left unable to move or fight back… it will be finished off in an immediate second shot.
