Leopard 1A5BE: Belgium's last MBT

Suggestions Ground
6

Gunner only and yes, gen 1

2 Likes
9

So how much of this is different from say the 1A5 in the german tree… just the rounds?

11

Well i’m not the most knowledgeable about it but i think the tracks are different which improves off-road speed, there’s that distinctive armored head on the right side of the turret which houses the laser rangefinder and other optics thingys, the FCS is Belgian from SABCA, the machine guns are different and some other minor changes here and there.
Basically it’s not a 1A5 bought from Germany but it’s been brought to 1A5 standard with Belgian stuff

1 Like
14

I believe Leopard 1A5BE would be a good squadron vehicle (having fat IFV without anti-tank vehicles is awful), while Leopard 1A5BE MEXAS would be a nice premium and Leopard Cockerill 3105 would be great researchable top vehicle. Trio to fullfill everyone’s needs - the speedrunners, the donators and the grinders. If delivered in time, i’d instantly go for it after Abrams

15

suggestion for Leopard 1A5BE with unmanned cockerill turret

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16

+1 so the Benelux ground subtree is less of a travesty

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17

Maybe check the passed suggestions? It’s already been suggested and passed to the devs…

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18

+1 for 10.0

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19

o nice

20

i was not expecting tom belgium to be real, i thought only johnny american were real

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21

Seeing as though this vehicle is coming in the next major, I’m curious if there are any sources out there to confirm this. I know Gaijin probably wanted the Leopard 1A5BE to fill a specific gap but I’d be totally in favor of it getting a new shell or two depending on what the last handful of tanks were supplied with back in 2015.

22

At the time of writing this information was provided by someone who served in the army. I’ve not got official sources for it yet, but research is underway.

2 Likes
23

DST-1160Z-029-94 and several other sources identify M1001, M1050 and M1060 as Belgian-developed 105 mm APFSDS-T ammunition for the M68/L7 gun family. Together with Belgian HESH, HEAT, HE, smoke and illumination rounds, they form a complete Belgian 105 mm tank ammunition suite. Although no procurement document has yet been located that explicitly lists these rounds as Belgian Leopard 1A5BE service ammunition, Mecar’s position as Belgium’s principal tank ammunition manufacturer and supplier to the Belgian Army (which is reflected in Senatorial hearings, KNDS communication and in hundreds of interviews over the decades) makes it highly likely that these munitions were procured domestically for Leopard 1 operations.

here’s some stats on these rounds:

105 mm

Designation Gun Caliber Type Velocity Weight Penetration Notes
M393A2 NATO 105 mm L7 105 mm HESH 732 m/s 11.25 kg ~127 mm Belgian copy of US M393A2. DST-1160Z-029-94
M416 NATO 105 mm L7 105 mm Smoke (WP) 732 m/s 11.6 kg / Belgian copy of US M416. DST-1160Z-029-94
M1001 NATO 105 mm M68/(L7?) 105 mm APFSDS-T 1525 m/s 5.8 kg ? Monolithic tungsten alloy core. Cartridge length 985 mm. DST identifies weapon as M68 gun, we’re not sure if the L7 could fire that round yet, although anecdotal references do support it. Likely predecessor of M1050/M1060
M1010 NATO 105 mm L7 105 mm HE-T 700 m/s 12.1 kg / 2.0 kg Comp B filler. Belgian indigenous HE round. DST-1160Z-029-94
M1050 NATO 105 mm L7 105 mm APFSDS-T 1510 m/s 5.8 kg ? Monolithic tungsten alloy core. Cartridge length 927 mm. Specifically listed for L7 guns in DST-1160Z-029-94
M1060 NATO 105 mm L7 105 mm APFSDS-T 1510 m/s 5.8 kg ? Monolithic tungsten alloy core. Cartridge length 980 mm. DST-1160Z-029-94
M1060A1 NATO 105 mm L7 105 mm APFSDS-T 1510 m/s 5.8 kg 400 mm @ 60° / 2000 m First major production improvement of M1060 family
M1060A2 NATO 105 mm L7 105 mm APFSDS-T 1460 m/s 6.2 kg 440 mm @ 60° / 2000 m Longer/heavier penetrator
M1060A3 NATO 105 mm L7 105 mm APFSDS-T 1560 m/s 6.2 kg >500 mm @ 60° / 2000 m Current KNDS Belgium specification
M1061 NATO 105 mm L7 105 mm HEAT-T 1173 m/s 10.5 kg 400 mm Belgian copy of US M456A2. Confirmed in DST-1160Z-029-94
M490 NATO 105 mm L7 105 mm HEAT-TP Ballistically matched 20.45 kg complete / Training round matched to M456A2
M467 NATO 105 mm L7 105 mm HESH-TP Ballistically matched 20.42 kg complete / Training round matched to M393A2
M1008 NATO 105 mm L7/F1 105 mm Illumination / 11.7 kg complete / WP illumination projectile
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24

Outstanding Bug reports:

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25

Kind of related question, would any of these shells be possible for a future Leopard 1A5BE (MEXAS) or Leopard SCT? I don’t know the timeframe of the SCT’s full conversion to 1A5BE or the introduction of each the ammo types you show above, but I know the MEXAS prototype probably wouldn’t receive as advanced ammunition as a standard 1A5BE at the time of retirement right?

As someone in favor of full historical ammo loadouts I feel this would make all the Belgian Leopards feel significantly more unique if they are placed at a slightly higher BR than their German counterparts in exchange for some higher penning rounds.

2 Likes
26

Very likely not indeed, but it was kept in-service with the armour package untill their retirement in 2014-2016. Based on the time the prototype was trialed, it would likely use these munitions:

  • M1050 APFSDS (guaranteed)
  • M1001 APFSDS (likely)
  • M393A2 HESH (guaranteed) (already in-game on Cockerill 105 mm HP gun)
  • M1061 (M456A2) HEAT (guaranteed) (already in-game on Cockerill 105 mm HP gun)
  • M1060 APFSDS-T (less likely)
  • M1060A1 APFSDS-T (Possible)
  • M1060A2 APFSDS-T (Possible)
  • M1060A3 APFSDS-T (very unlikely)

But as the OP said, it had the exact same munitions in-service as all other 1A5BE.

1 Like
27

When I wrote the MEXAS suggestion, I got in touch with the museum that owns the prototype to ask them if it would have used any different ammunition types. I got a reply that there was no difference and it used the same shells as the other Leopards until retirement. So that pretty much confirms there is no difference in used shells compared to the regular 1A5BE

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28

To be fair now, there’s a chance the person who responded thought you were talking about the types of ammo, not the specific model of shells. If the MEXAS prototype’s last firing (which I assume was during testing right?) was during the 2000s, I would not expect it to be armed with, say, some of the later M1060 variants.

Not that it matters all that much, just curious about where some of these variants fit in along the Mecar APFSDS timeline.

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29

Good and bad news for the Belgian Leopard 1A5BE (depending on how you look at it):

The missing M1061 (M456A2) HEAT and M393A2 HESH rounds are already present in the game, Gaijin simply chose not to add them to the vehicle for which they make the most historical sense. Instead, they are currently available on the much newer CT-CV 105 HP and CV90105 Cockerill vehicles.

In other words, Gaijin has already modelled these Belgian rounds and assigned them to modern Belgian export turrets, but not to the Belgian Leopard 1 that historically would have used this family of ammunition.

This means that two of these bug reports should really be straightforward corrections and arguably should never have been necessary in the first place.

Should Gaijin accept these latter two reports, there would be no need to create new ammunition models or introduce new data. The rounds already exist in-game; it would simply be a matter of assigning existing Belgian ammunition to a Belgian vehicle equipped with a compatible 105 mm L7 gun.

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30

It would really have exactly the same ammo as the other 1A5BEs. The MEXAS was not retired before the others. It kept the armour package and returned to service. So yes, the MEXAS leopard was actually in operational service.
Since it wasn’t retired early and kept the armour package until the end, there’s no reason why it should receive any different shells than the others.

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