Except we’re talking about Brimstone 2s. Also 75T is not IR, it is effectively a SAP 65b. It does not serve the role remotely adequately. Brimstone 2s would bring the efficacy of Gr4 notably higher, and you could still carry PGMs for grouped targets.
Even if we factor in SAL Brimstone 2s. Tornado Gr4 is gunna have a tough time defending against anything. If the argument is “aircraft kinematics dictate loadout” then Tornado Gr4 should have MMW Spear-3s by now.
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Right, didn’t see mate was basing it off aircraft kinematics. That’s very silly. But if we want to start that, I’d love some IR guided kh25s by now at around 11.3. My frogfoots suffer, obviously.
yeah. top tier BRs are a mess, but the one sided nerfs are getting old
They are not, one is capable of speeds in excess of mach 2 and reaching altitudes in excess of 32k feet, by those two stats alone you cannot compare them.
That is fundamentally incorrect, the vikhir from fixed wing or otherwise are the same. The SU-25s use the same exact vihkir as the KA-50, there are no stat differences, the KA-52’s and MI-28’s are also this way only sporting a different name.
Indeed, thats what makes the situation moot, a EF can dictate engagements in a way a helicopter can only dream of.
Your insistence on range alone being the deciding factor between a fixed wing aircraft and a rotary wing aircraft is comical, once again, a fixed wing aircraft will always have a better time at dictating their engagement than a rotary wing aircraft, that along is more than enough of a boon to have a difference in power.
Skill issue, you outright have the second best SALH missile in the game on one of the best preforming airframes in the game.
Thats weird, I don’t recall us talking about the tornado anywhere here as this conversation was centered around actual top tier vehicles, namely the AH-64E and Eurofighter.
Nice strawman but we aren’t comparing the Rafale to anything here, this conversation was between the AH-64E and Eurofighter alone.
I’m sensing a massive amount of cope going on here while attempting to avoid the actual origional topic of the argument, the AH-64E with JAGM-MRs is still not comparable to the Eurofighter sporting SALH brimstones as it is a helicopter and not a fixed wing aircraft.
If we say had a F-15E sporting JAGM-Fs this would be a different story but we do not.
Does physics evade you by any chance?
Do missile stats evade you by any chance?
You can fire both the rotary wing and fixed wing mounted vikhirs have a max launch range of 26240 ft, you cannot change such with flight performance and both reach their max launch range without issue, they are identical.
You can try and edge the vikhir out past 26240 ft by aiming within the launch range and then dragging it out of the range, but you can do the same with the rotary wing vikhir, and both die right at their normal max range due to flight time limits.
What?
Its not even close. AASM, AGM-65, KH-38ML, all outperform Brimstone in all respects bar quantity carried. Its literally a hellfire missile with 15 seconds extra guidance time. Nothing unique about the Brimstone has been modeled yet. So even the Vikhrs is better
and? The better platforms like the Rafale arent artificially limited in their A2A or A2G loadouts because “they have good FM” Heck. The Rafale even gets ahistorical buffs.
By that argument the Rafale should only have PGMs and not AASMs.
It use Brimstones. The entire argument is about getting Brimstone 1s with FnF or SAL Brimstone 2s. Its 100% relevant. If the argument is that the Typhoon must be artifically nerfed because “its got a good FM” whats the excuse for the Tornado?
AH-64E is immune to IR thrats due to IRCM, Immune to ARH threats due to inherrent heli issues, has 16x 18km? FnF ATGMs which it can fire from the crest of a hill and then hide behind again once its fired. AH-64E can engage multiple targets at once
Typhoon has 18x 15-18km SAL weapons, is 100% vulnerable to every IR and ARH threat and cannot hide behind any terrain because it needs to maintain LoS with the target to lase it. It can only engage 1 target at a time.
Then lets compare Brimstone 1s to KH-38MT or AASM or Spice-250s or heck, even AGM-65.
Typhoon has the weakest AGM at top tier. Period. With 0 FnF weapon. Period and all it has for stand off is 6x 500lb glide bombs, which are completely worthless to use most of the time.
Lets compare to the F-15E shall we. Where is the Typhoons GBU-39 or AGM-130 or AGM-65 equivalent?
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Vikhrs from a kamov reach 8km. Vikhrs from a frogfoot reach 10km. But go on.
Mate blew off talking about the Rafale, the nearest competitor, so I doubt mate will bother to engage intelligently. Just a yank making an army of strawmen and crying the moment you dare bring up relevant information to the topic. As they always do.
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Yeah, sounds like it. They would argue for MMW GBU-53s whislt arguing the Brmstone 1 would be too OP for the Typhoon because the F-15E cant beat the Typhoon in a gunfight
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based based based based
The SALH AASM is a glorified GPS bomb, it only preforms better in raw payload delivered, you are asking to die by using it due to it’s very long flight time.
The laser AGM-65s are outright worse in every regard bar payload as well, but given their tendency to just not kill things I would prefer a HEAT warhead at every point. The AGM-65s sport lower kinematic range due to being vastly fatter and having 1/4th of the delta V of the brimstone, they also sport a vastly lower max range to begin with, only being able to be fired at 11km, while the brimstone can be fired all the way out to 20km (with hits at that range just not occurring so nominally between 15 to 13km max due to the limits of flight time) due to it having IOG.
The only missile outright superior here as a SALH missile is the KH-38ML which is obvious.
Once again, argument was between the AH-64E and the Eurofighter, the Rafale has nothing to do with this conversation.
No the argument was that the AH-64E getting JAGM-MRs made it somehow better than the Eurofighter, which its not and you’ve yet to prove.
Oh no, what ever shall I do with my Eurofighter which commonly mounts these things called radar guided missiles, that and your brimstones are SALH which ignore IRCM, that and, its so sad that you cant mask your fighter jet with terrain like everyone else in any RB match.
Hey, I’m going to give you the line people drop all the time when saying hellfires are fine, use the IOG and stay out of LOS until its near the target, then pop out and lase the target.
- immediately tries to shift his argument to fixed wing munitions
No this is about the JAGM-MR on the rotary wing AH-64E and the fixed wing Eurofighter sporting SALH brimstones, no other aircraft.
Nope, you still haven’t proven to me that the AH-64E with JAGM-MRs is somehow inferior to the eurofighter sporting SALH brimstones.
Lol, lmao even
- whaaaa I can’t change the goalposts because I cant win the argument.
Still waiting on either of you to give me a good reason to think that the eurofighter with SALH brimstones is inferior to the AH-64E with JAGM-MRs beyond yeeted range alone.
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If they’ve changed it to be inaccurate, that’s on them. Irl, the platforms have notable differences in energy transfer and employment range. War thunder is not gospel, otherwise Typhoon would be significantly better, Rafale likewise.
Not shifting goalposts when every example builds upon the others. But alas, yanks regrettably are often found lacking in their discourse skills.
The Rafale does have everything to do with the main topic at hand however.
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So you admit that you were quoting incorrect information and that war thunder is not real life?
That plane just keeps popping up, very curious. I’m also sensing a bit of butthurt here
I’m sorry but adding the Rafale into a comparison between the AH-64E with JAGM-MRs and the eurofighter with SALH brimstones adds nothing, it is irrelevant to the ongoing discussion, if you wish to continue or start a discussion on the Rafale, then feel free to do so without interacting with the current one.
And I’m not talking about the total topic at hand I am arguing against one statement Morvran has made within that topic’s framework that I find to be incorrect.
This one in particular.
And I will re-iterate my stance formally for the people in the back, the AH-64E JAGM-MRs is overall still inferior to the eurofighter due to the fact that the AH-64E is a rotary wing aircraft and the eurofighter is not, the JAGM-MR’s additional 1 to 3km (depending on the launch parameters of the brimstone) of range is not enough to overcome the vast hull performance gap between both platforms.
So you want a small portion of the community with questionable skill levels to decide what stays and what should be removed, based solely on their opinions ?
Also, that range buff is meaningless but that average speed decrease isn’t.
You have nothing from empty words as they just might be lies, as you will never know for certain.
Morvran already said what id say so im just gonna addd my two cents.
I tried to make brimstones work. I really tried. It just cant be done.
Brimstones are effectively just reskinned hellfires, but they perform even worse than them.
Why?
For starters, they are HEAT warhead. Relatively light on top of that. I cant count the ammount of times ive got hits only.
Then its the matter of platform issues when using SAL guidance.
Helicopters have drastically different playstyle that makes the SAL guidance less of an issue. They can hover in place, and they can hide behind the ground if targeted. If map allows it, they can have both cover and elevation. Launching SAL missile under these conditions is not much of an issue, because at the very least you can dip below the cover instantly if targeted, at the cost of the missile and stay there until situations clear (At least it could before the addition of new generation of SPAA and it remains to be seen whenever ARH terminal missiles will be able to engage low flying helis).
EFTs with brimstones dont have that luxury. Brimstone launched from 5k alt at max range takes almost a whole minute to reach its target. For the entire duration of its flight you are exposed in the sky with limited manuevering capabilities because your target cant leave the gymball limit of your TGP (unless you wanna hope the gaijins spaghetti code will make the missile reaccquire the targeting laser).
Of course, some people will come rushing in crying about the “op and definetively meta brimstone trick” where you launch the missile, immidiately hit the deck, fly towards the battlefield, climb in the last 10 seconds of brimstones flight and reaccquire the target. All of this and you still gotta pray that the target didnt move at all during the time you couldnt see it, or hide. If you have to put that much work into single missile, its a bad missile. On top of that, aforementioned issues with missile seeker reaccquring the targeting laser.
Some people can even say “why not approach the battlefield flying low, climb when you are closer to battlefield and then launch?”. Same issues still apply. Typhoons arent helicopters, they cant hover in place and they go much faster. If you try to attack in this way, you will have extremely narrow window of opportunity to find your target and launch your missile.
You simply have to jump through so many hoops in order to get any use of them; compared to likes of Kh-38MTs (or any FnF munitions, really) where you slam spacebar several times and then can go full defensive and return to your airfield to rearm.
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Because it can engage multiple targets at the same time with minimal input which the EF can’t.
Not really sure why this is such a hard concept to understand.
Except mavericks
IMO mavs, due to being FnF, are still better than brimstones. Before gaijin boosted the magnification of 65Ds seeker, ive ran F-4F late with two 65Bs over EFT with brimstones as CAS for my top tier lineup. Currently grinding the swiss hornet.