Whatever you call it, I don’t like monotony. Sometimes it’s better to write about a captured plane (history of capture, tests on it, etc.) than to write about planes that are sometimes very similar to each other.
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That doesn’t make them good ideas to be implemented into the game. If you want to write about them, that’s fine, but that won’t make them good options for implementation. We have enough copy paste as it is, we don’t need more then what is necessary.
Are they that bad? They are often much better armed than their Japanese counterparts, for example Ki-43/44 vs P-40E or Ki-45 vs Me 210.
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The Soviets didn’t do much with the Maus except shoot at it for a few years. During that time, they also stripped it of everything of value, hence why it’s an empty shell these days.
As for the American Tiger IIs, technically, both of the ones that were captured were operational, and one of them was used in action. Tiger II, with the number 332, was commandeered by a Sherman Crew, who then drove it towards German lines with the intention of surprising the Germans. Unfortunately for them, the Tiger II ran out of fuel before they could find any enemies. The tank was later recovered and is displayed at the National Armor and Cavalry Collection. The other Tiger II was captured near Düren by B company of the 129th Repair Battalion and was driven back to Allied lines and repaired. Initially, there were a couple of proposals to use it as a battering ram, but Ordnance found out and seized it before any such shenanigans could be attempted.
Honestly, both of those scream perfect premium candidates to me. They certainly have unique histories, and not to mention, the one taken near Düren even had standard US Army camo and markings applied for its proposed use. Honestly, I wouldn’t be opposed to seeing them as premiums just considering they have such interesting histories, and I figure they’d actually sell pretty well. Ditto with Tiger 131
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Armament is irrelevant. The issue at hand is foreign equipment that was (usually, anyway) only ever evaluated being put into TT for no good reason. They don’t add anything to the tree and contribute to the chronic issue of copy paste War thunder has been experiencing for a while now.
Eh, one of those stories is a pretty generic story of a captured vehicle. Maybe if the did actually use it as a battering ram, I would be down, but that plan never materialized. The other is close enough to the traditional stories of captured vehicles, that I would rather not, though I would say that it is close. And the only way I would accept Tiger 131 in the British tech tree would be if a majority of the proceeds would go to the tank museum as, while it would still have the issues of other captured vehicles, I’m willing to let that slide if it means that the people who safeguard the history War Thunder is based on get more funds to do their work.
How exactly can a tree be “watered down” by purely optional premium vehicles, which most if not all of these would be?
A premium by definition is not something you need to play, but an option for you to buy. Don’t care for it? Don’t buy it then. Do care for it? Have fun with your premium.
You’re not taking anything away by adding it, just giving those that want it an option to get it.
Sadly the functional Maus prototype was detonated, and the Soviets had to replace hull number 2 with hull number 1 for tests. I don’t think this was fully functional, but since they started shooting it and taking it apart from the inside out anyways I doubt it.
So Soviet Maus would either just be a Maus with a worse engine, or more likely non functional.
Even then there is a separation between vehicles bought and evaluated for adoption into service, and those simply evaluated from the enemy.
The first is no different from any other prototype, which we have a lot of, and will keep getting a lot of.
And there is nothing wrong with copy paste if it is optional. Do I want to be forced through the same vehicle in 10 trees? Not really.
But if I have the option to buy a vehicle I liked before in another tree for a different nations lineup, I see that differently and might want it. And if I don’t, I don’t buy it and it won’t concern me, simple as.
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This was worst arguments in history of arguments, meybe ever.
This guy made something like 2/3-3/4 of Japan air suggestions and you came with this? XDD
you are denying yourself
Finally, your whole rant is unnecessary, as from all possibile and implemented foreign aircrafts for japan this one gives most to gameplay. This is great(unless implemented with real flight model) attacker much need because dive bombers are either too fragile, too vunerable or have not enough bombs to be effective as attacker
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Because copy paste decreases the uniqueness of the trees by it’s very nature, both the nation it originates from and the nation that receives it, and you can’t exactly ban specific vehicles from popping up in matchmaking. Even if I don’t buy it, it will still pop up when I play the game. It takes away from the point of nations, and while I can understand it when you run into the case of having little else to add, I don’t see the point in implementing unnecessary copy paste vehicles that don’t have any place in the TT.
No, god no. Foreign vehicles purchased for evaluation are wildly different from actual prototypes. One of these is a wholly unique indigenous vehicle created for the purpose of either experimentation or possible adoption, whereas the other is a design that has already finished it’s initial development cycle and has been put on to market. These are two wildly different things and should not be conflated.
As for the separation between captured and evaluated, not really. Putting aside the cases where captured vehicles were used in service, which is very much the minority, both were only ever poked around and never put into service, and would only contribute to the growing issue of copy paste if they were implemented, the only difference is in how they were acquired.
No. Copy paste is bad regardless of how it’s gated. At best, premium and event copy paste contributes to the issue less then tech tree copy paste, but it still contributes at the end of the day, and I see no reason to encourage making the issue worse in most any capacity.
Your point? He still could’ve put in additional suggestions for indigenous aircraft instead, and while I understand he wanted to shake up what he researches, that does not make a Japanese ME 210 a good idea, and the same can be said for the other relevant suggestions.
No, it really wouldn’t. If Japan does, truly, have an issue with a lack of attacker aircraft, the last thing we should do is encourage Gaijin to release the solution behind a paywall. Perhaps it is a good option out of all the evaluated foreign vehicles Japan could get, but evaluated foreign vehicles are a terrible idea in the first place. It wouldn’t solve anything, and only worsen the copy paste issue.
“Repaired”? More like trashed. IF this is put into the game, then it should have less traverse & accuracy than a drunk Stug III equipped with a misaligned weapon:
plus 4 x SC 50 bombs (200 kg) = 12 x SC 50 bombs (600 kg)
The same bomb load as the Me 410 A-1:
More information:
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You can make all sorts of arguments following that line of thinking, such as German tanks not having enough fuel, for example, or having all vehicles having a certain chance of breaking down. But as WT is a game at its core, I don’t think there’s any need for such mechanics. If it were to be put in the game, it would probably be the same scenario as the Swedish one, fully operational with an allied camo.
(Plus, there’s also the other Tiger II that was captured fully operational if the issue of the one in the video not being fully operable is an actual implementation issue).
That said it’s probably best to get on the Me 210 topic again and leave the tanks for the ground suggestion topics
honest reaction
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How funny that guy who never tried to understand the problems of Japanese aviation TT says that they don’t need attacker plane when the only attacker plane is Ki-109 on which you can’t do quests or challenges for BP
“But you have dive bombers”
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Thanks for the additional information. And with this Me 410, I didn’t mean the historical Me 410, but the one in the game that does not have a 1000 kg bomb
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1: I’m something of TT purist myself, but premium does not count. If C-P is implemented as researchable then Yes, but premium works different, It not take away uniqueness of tree, as it is not forced
2: if you meet Me.210 in game, what is difference if this particular one is german, japanese or hungarian? If fly the same, shoot the same and bomb the same
From point of view of militarny that will use them, they are same. Both need to be tested, evaluated by pilots and develop for then new network of supply and parts.
Also part about finish of development cycle is untrue. After initial design was finished, engineers start work on improvements and fixes, creating multiple variants, with
export versions posesing whole other sets of modification.
My point is that you are telling Bee that she should start making honey. As he already told you, he posted 40 aircrafts, nearly all native.
And please enlight me, what indigenous aircraft he should add? ( “He should know” and “Some” does not count, I demand full name, otherwise your argument doesn’t hold water)
Your argumentation line must be very weak if you changed your point 180° from “Jap CAS if fine with just bombers” to “Jap CAS suffer so any new attacker can’t be premium because its too important to have one in TT”
And most important thing. If we have in game only machines and weapons that are really used, your precious US, Germany and USSR TT would be at max 2/3 their size and for example Germany would lost half of their Air-Air missiles
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And premium planes wouldn’t solve that.
Bad take. It absolutely does. If I can pick and choose what vehicles I would want from foreign tech trees, even if I have to purchase them as premiums, I wouldn’t have bothered grinding out substantial portions of the German and Japanese TTs.
No. It is a relatively proven design actively being used by a friendly power. Is it new to them? Yes, and those supply lines will need to be set up, but it is in no way comparable to what an actual prototype would require, which is comparatively unproved, and lacks a foreign company actively having supply lines and factories for production. They are not the same, and saying they are is disingenuous at best.
Yes, development continues to a certain extent after the aircraft is accepted into service. The point is, that the aircraft reached the point where it was accepted into service.
I don’t know. All I know is that Japan has a bunch of suggestions advocating for copy paste for no good reason, and that I find highly unlikely that all possible options have been exhausted.
No, I’m pointing out that if Japan does have an issue with a lack of attacker aircraft, then providing a solution behind a paywall won’t fix the issue as not everyone would be able to get it. I also didn’t believe the lack of attacker aircraft is a big issue because, in my experience, big, twin engine strike aircraaft aren’t particularly useful in ground RB, with single engine craft being far more effective, at which point the difference between a single engine strike aircraft and a dive bomber is largely to do with if it was intended to be launched off of a carrier or an airstrip.
Again, mischaracterization. I said that foreign aircraft should only be allowed into the TT in ANY regard if they were actually put into service, and before you try to make me out to be a hypocrite, no, I do not like the captured or evaluated vehicles in ANY of the trees that were not put into service, premium or no. The only way I can think of it being ok would be if the nation that the evaluated vehicle originates from is not currently in game which practically makes it no different from the US Merkavas which were added before the Israeli TT.
“Why bother playing the entire variety of German aircraft for free if I can just pay real money to get one Me-210.”
A single aircraft is not equivalent to the entire German tree, it’s a nice change of pace for a Japanese lineup, it’s a fun camo to fly around, but in no way does it take away from the German tree.
I’d agree if you were arguing about Germany getting it too, but weirdly enough you are less concerned about fairness, and more concerned about what you don’t want others to enjoy.
If it’s a premium you don’t like, why care if you can instead just save yourself the money? Just allow others to enjoy it if they want, you don’t have to play it.
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Do me a favor, go look at the japanese tech tree and show me all their prop-driven strike aircraft.
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It’s the principal of the matter. If nations could get foreign aircraft simply because they owned at one point, regardless of if they put it into service or not, then you run the issue of huge portions of the axis trees becoming irrelevant as an American or Russian player could just purchase the vehicles they like and never touch those trees. I, for one, would never have bothered grinding out the German tech tree if I could have just purchased the Tigers. While the ME-210 is a lesser form of what happens with those ‘big ticket’, it still causes a similar effect, and I don’t see the point in advocating for using the smaller drill to poke holes into the ship simply because it’s smaller. It would be better off to stop drilling holes in the first place. And, as for if I think if Germany should get it, I think only nations that put the ME-210 in service should get it, which Japan did not, and that it would be absurd for the Japan devs to put in the resources into implementing the ME-210, when those resources would be better off in expanding the later tiers, which are so far barren.
Moreover, if you want to take a change of pace from the Japanese TT, the solution should trying out different tech trees, not advocating for more copy paste.
The game only considers one aircraft to be a strike aircraft, but more practically it’s at least 10 as dive bombers fill the same practical role in ground RB, many of which are at about the BR a ME-210 would probably be at, and from what I understand, there are about 3 additional fighter aircraft that can also fulfill that role. Regardless, Japan’s issue of a lack of strike aircraft would, in no way, be solved or allieviated by paygating a strike aircraft, especially one that is copy paste unless you want to argue that the Japan devs should put in resources into a foreign plane who’s inclusion into the TT is a stretch at best.
Whatever you call it, Gaijin itself encourages me to write about planes captured/purchased for Japan. 2 years ago he promised to strengthen the Japanese CAS and, for now, he has added a fictitious F-16AJ aircraft and an F-5E division vehicle. The Japanese have many CAS aircraft, but they are not added…
If they do not want to add the domestic CAS option, then you need to add the foreign CAS option. That’s why I proposed foreign CAS planes for Japan and that doesn’t mean I won’t propose more Japanese CAS planes.
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