It's time to fix heavy bomber gameplay in air RB

Machinery of War Discussion Aircraft
48

No offense, but i have zero clue why you request any changes (see title of this thread) if you have played just 61 Air RB matches in total … in 11 months - and not more than a handful of games in low tier bombers at Rank I.

Manual gunners can shoot, hit and kill at much greater ranges - relying on ai gunners was an option some years ago - but these times won’t come back.

This is nonsense - depending on turret and gun calibers of the bomber and the attacking fighter (and resulting ranges) it depends on the relative and absolute positioning of the bomber vs his attacker. As explained earlier an experienced bomber pilot can outrange his attackers for a while - in other words he has an advantage, even if just temporarily.

Reading this as a whole it looks like you have severe issues with bomber game play.

No offense, but we talk about flying, using turrets and pressing spacebar. The fighter jock behind you has no bombs and can combine flying and shooting at you - but he has to point his nose on you - a bomber can evade/dodge incoming attacks and fire on the fighter at the same time - just look at post#2 to see what i mean.

Ever wondered why most prop bombers with 0.50 cal or 20mm turrrts have way higher BRs in Air SB as in Air RB? They benefit from mouse aim and 3rd person view vs incoming fighters in cockpit view.

I do agree that based on my experience gaijin added some hidden nerfs regarding long range accuracy to manual gunners. 2 years ago it was no problem to score long range (= >2.3 km) kills - now i am happy to score crits at 2 km.

And everybody who has ever flown a Bv 238 knows that the intern responsible for this convergence mess was for sure a fighter jock…

As a summary:

Imho most players simply underestimate flying bombers above BR 2.7. It boils down that the requirements to play bombers successfully (surviving and contributing to the team effort at the same time) are higher than flying a fighter with the point and click approach. You have to be smarter than the average enemy fighter pilot - and you are forced to use the “right” target approaches and, most important, the “right” plane with the “right” strategy and tactic.

Jeez - at least for prop bombers this won’t change anything. Bombing made sense with a “killable” enemy airfield, more HP would simply encourage more fighter jocks to strap on bombs to compete for SL/RP - with an even more negative outcome of the match…

Indicator of base health?? There are about 5 base health steps with different base health parameters for props - and after 2-5 matches you should know what to drop at which health state - even if you fly plane crossing those steps in up-/downtiers.

You might observe friendly/enemy bombers after they killed bases - and check the scoreboard to see the TNT dropped. This might be useless if you see an enemy Pe-8 dropping a FAB 5.000 on a base (=1.69t of TNT dropped) and your team mate in a B7A2 drops 9 x 60 kg (= 0.228 t of TNT dropped) - both kill a base, and the B7A2 even gets a higher mission score, but this makes bombing less boring.

49

I think that having a bomber only mode would remedy some of these issues. I have always been a fan of watching documentary’s on these raids over berlin and such. Im sick of trying to play my b17 and getting smacked by a single german 30mm and it taking my whole wing off. This just makes me feel like an rp piñata which is not fun at all

50

Regarding a bomber only mode:

  • I see your point, but imho you wish looks not like a desired goal for gaijin.

  • I mean it is a shooter with “engagement optimized” game play and map layout. From a holistic pov anything PvE related is just luring rather inexperienced players in Air modes to play victim for designated PvP players.

  • In addition - what do you expect when playing such a theoretical mode? Less resistance? Maybe a few ai interceptors? You won’t gain SL/RP income from such a mode (Heli PvE is special topic) and imho there Is no point to fly around a map and drop spacebar.

  • Maybe, if you would fight enemy bombers in a kind of gunship mode you would find some fans of such a mode, but not all bombers are suited for that. And based on my observations the majority of bomber pilots just want to drop their payload as a low effort investment to gain SL/RP - i see no real passion for bomber game play; bombing is just a tool.

Regarding documentaries:

  • If you enjoy these documentaries and you are a B-17 fan i recommend this book:

  • It describes a lot of real combat action and how important a working team actually is. Check the comments on amazon.

  • Have in mind that TV series or documentaries are 95% trash as they describe more less the same stuff but often without serious research - “new” views are rare and most of the documentaries are just filling gaps between commercials / ads.

Regarding your struggle with playing B-17s:

  • Every few dozen games i see a B-17 flown correctly - meaning that they invested a lot of time to climb above 6.500 meters and flew detours to avoid being spotted too early.

  • At 7 km they are quite fast and stuff like most RU planes or 190As have way slower closing speeds due to severe drop of engine power whilst the turbo -superchargers of the B-17s work great. As US 0.50 cals outrange incoming fire (2,4 km vs 0,8 to 1.4 km) they have quite good survival rate vs single opponents.

  • The problem relies mainly with the teams as usually US teams suck and they die like flies even with 5 XP-50s. And if they don’t suck they stomp enemies way too fast.

  • So if you fly detours you play then 1 vs 7 or the game is over before you had the chance to drop.

51

im not saying it would be a mode where you just fly around bombing bases. Maybe they add it in a way that they do when they have the mini event where you fly against the Germans. But less of a 3 b17 to 30 109 kind of deal. It would be hard to make work but if there was a way to code the ai to fly in formation and you along with them. Maybe make it a community thing where you need to slowly work through Europe over time. almost like helldivers where the community is working for a goal. maybe they could implement a flak gameplay where you shoot down the bombers in flak guns like the flak bus. It would be cool to feel more involved in a game mode where you and the community are working together. Also thank you for the book recommendation I will gladly look into it.

1 Like
52

I have been reading this post. but seriously if bomber only defense is height, why can fighters just wave up to 7Km (23,000 ft) and then one shot my bomber? i spent 7 minutes just to get to this level yet a fighet can close it in 3 mins up to the point? WEP has to be fixed. you cant just overclock an engine.

53

I watched your replay :

https://warthunder.com/en/tournament/replay/187345597278497290

Imho u made some serious mistakes:

  • You climbed way too steep - meaning that every plane has something like “optimal climb speed” - if you climb to steep your high AoA produces a hell of drag making ur climb highly inefficient.

  • You tried to play the role of a strategic bomber in a Ki-49 - climbing makes no real sense for you if you fly then with 175-200 kmph IAS - you are then basically a stationary target - in a plane which burns like paper.

  • You did not level out to pick up speed and tried to show him your six - you allowed your enemy a lead curve shooting at you from your 4 o’ clock position.

  • Climbing in a medium bomber to 7km on an arcade-style map like Laizihou Bay makes no sense at this BR and with this climb pattern - even a 3.0 P-38 kills you easy there.

  • You got killed by an experienced pilot in a Pyoerremski. Same engine as 109 G-6 - no chance to escape.

On such small maps you have in such a bomber just 2 choices:

  • A: A high speed run hoping that you don’t cross the path of an enemy strike fighter and immediate rtb
  • B: Climbing in the back near your own airfield hoping that enemies get dragged low and there is an opening in the fighter / interceptor screen for a swift attack

Imho you misunderstood something regarding altitude as defense.

Climbing high makes sense if you have a plane with good high alt performance and good defensive guns - meaning that you are quite fast in order to keep enemies as long as possible inside your, but outside their gun range - and/or to have altitude which you can trade into speed which helps you to escape - either below own fighters or in the range of your airfield aaa.

Imho you have to avoid JP bombers in general if you are rather new in wt - the G8N, the H8K and the B7A2 are the exception.

Try the TT B7A2 - climb with 250 - 260 IAS airspeed and drop 9x60 kg on a base - this kills every base including full uptiers. Avoid enemy fighters if you are not feel confident to kill them and gain experience.

Regarding WEP and overheating - go to yt and look for DEFYNs MEC guide (2 part vid).

54
  • You did not level out to pick up speed and tried to show him your six - you allowed your enemy a lead curve shooting at you from your 4 o’ clock position.
  • i make bomb runs at level so i did level to drop my bombs i normay start the first bomb run around 6Km. aborting at any fighter in my view and moving toward base till atleast 7.5km

  • You tried to play the role of a strategic bomber in a Ki-49 - climbing makes no real sense for you if you fly then with 175-200 kmph IAS - you are then basically a stationary target - in a plane which burns like paper.
    i was running around 300 KmPH whe i fought. Question does Japan have no STBs?

  • You got killed by an experienced pilot in a Pyoerremski. Same engine as 109 G-6 - no chance to escape.
    that is a understandable advice. it dose feel i have to learn all the fighters and bombers Stats to just play a bomber in RB at the moment.

Regarding WEP and overheating - go to yt and look for DEFYNs MEC guide (2 part vid)
my thing about WEP is a pilot can not exced the 100% throttle controls on their slide. most prop planes of the era already has a turbocharger, but the floating carberator could not audjest to differnet A-F mixtures required to pust preformance. WEP sould not be avalible in RB unless fuel injection, level 3 matance and lvl 3 pilot are enabled.

but i do thank you for the advice. ATM i want to play bombers but it’s a stright dead end. IMO we should have intel and radar planes for info to teammates next. having battlefield data gathering planes was key in 4th gen

55

Maybe i was not clear enough mate:

  1. JP bombers are actually among the worst bombers in the game as they are fragile, have a rather small bomb load and most players can’t use their benefits like very good handling. If you have played several hundred matches you can use some of them very effectively - in addition to the 3 already mentioned types: I see frequently a few exceptional pilots in Ki-67s - able to turnfight single engine fighters and to kill them with gunner skills.
  2. It makes zero sense to climb if you are unable to use your altitude to your advantage - either to flee or to defend yourself properly.
  3. Bomber pilots kill themselves long before they got shot down - just by wrong decision making. You have to be smarter than the average fighter pilot.
  4. So if you allow an enemy attacking you from the side, you are giving him a much larger target, and you made your best defensive weapon, ur 20mm tail gunner, useless.

Regarding your reply:

  • You got killed with 200 TAS as you climbed whilst being shot
  • I have zero clue what you mean with “STB”

Use the B7A2 as recommended and gain experience, otherwise you won’t get better. Use this replay as an example what you can do with a B7A2:

https://warthunder.com/en/tournament/replay/187654602995966594

4 Kills and a base kill…

56

I work with the JSDF and USFJ so i want to focus on Japan and US. to give some back story.

  • I have zero clue what you mean with “STB”
    StraTegic Bombers. high Atl bombers vs mid and low Bomber.
    so i should play them toward the goround vs high alts
  1. Bomber pilots kill themselves long before they got shot down - just by wrong decision making. You have to be smarter than the average fighter pilot.
    So i need to use the Old 666 air tactics to surive bombers (old 666 B-17) <needs to be in the game[ only with Max b-17 crew though]

so side gunners are useless in the current game (in RB)?

thanks for the Advice.

once again the WW2 Bomber sould transation into LD intel planes ( A12>SR71) and ( AWAK) and incoraprate a more SA and EW battle field.
Bombers are a deadend in the game but heavys are live in well in RL.
Missions to drop troops, Control all battle Field Comms, control BF (F35) SEAD Missions. ETC
this game has alot to go forward with

57

As said earlier - if you have ur best gun in the back - show him your six.

I played extra for you this match:

https://warthunder.com/en/tournament/replay/187764657238068488

…to show you when altitude is useful if you have the right bomber and how to play vs fighter noobs. I allowed a guy to chase me for 17 minutes - completely out of any danger for me, just for fun.

  • If you watch the replay from perspective 2 (=player view) you see the different approaches - i saw the P-38 right in time and decided (based on his plane and vehicle statistics) that he is suited to play the role of the average fighter pilot.

  • I turned away from him at around 4 minutes and continued climbing whilst maintaining my optimal climb speed. As i started to outrun him i closed the distance to keep him interested - and i scored my first crit at around 6 minutes.

  • I was able to climb further whilst keeping him inside my gun range (~ 3 km) shooting backwards, but outside his effective gun range of 1.8 km - shooting forwards.

  • Basicall he neved had a chance to get in his gun range as my constant gunner fire forced him to fly not in a straight line and the hits and crits reduced his top speed.

  • As i saw the contrail of a second enemy incoming (and i was not sure what kind of plane it is) i decided to keep him at my six - and not start a turnfight. The P-38s have no real chance in a turnfight.

  • If the second guy would have been another P-38, i might have dropped my 1200kg bombload to increase speed and manueverabilty, but it was another rather limited fighter pilot in a very slow P-61 = no threat.

So you might ask - why have you not bombed or tried to kill the P-38, or why you have even played this chasing game? Quite simple - if you drag one or 2 interceptors with alt advantage away from your team, you increase their chances to kill enemies and to win by tickets, whilst you keep enemies busy.

That is, besides contributing with actual kills, the best way to support you team. You won’t influence the outcome of 98% of your matches with bombing a base and kill ~300 enemy tickets - in order be useful you have to support your fighters.

2 Likes
58

playing with bombers is just a waste of time and SL…----

59

Well, u can grind an most a tech tree in like a week in sim as a bomber

60

The bomber game in this game is just such an imitation and the game is situated for fighters and some powerful attack aircraft…
Arcade is an acrobatic festival of bombers, which makes no sense to solve…
In the simulator there is a chance to play well with the bomber, but you have to be careful, a player who knows what to do with a fighter will be uncompromising…

Realism seems to me the most adrenaline-filled…
It is necessary to think about where and how I will fly right from the start (land or air) and try to be invisible for the last moment, and it is not just about reaching the destination, but also returning to the base…
Gunners are good to research, but it makes sense to have a fully researched crew, which should have a firing start at a distance of up to 600 meters.
The speed and angle of climb, map tracking, height for the formation of inversion lines play a role … simply everything that affects visibility …
Personally, I am sorry that the night maps, where the markers were displayed at a maximum of 3 km, tracer tracks, ground searchlights, etc., have disappeared.
In addition, the maps are too symmetrical (positions of target bases) are easy to remember and predictable…
I would like to see the efficiency of the heavy bombers if they had the option to set the fuel to a max of 30 minutes…
It would require more elaboration, but I think the devs have evaluated that it makes no sense…

The most problematic is the composition of targets … machine guns, bunkers, convoys of vehicles and boats, bases … at br 5.0 you will be destroyed by much faster aircraft and it is all about nothing, I miss more sophistication here (more targets, sophisticated effectiveness of targets for type of airplanes … it would like to fine-tune … )

You can have quite a lot of fun with heavy bombers, but overall they are just bushes…

1 Like
61

The fuk? they’re nowhere close to the same xp gains

62

One thing i suffer from in the B-17G is the fact that it is paper. And why can’t we have our own game mode for bombers so that you just bomb stuff and make SL out of that.

63

And one more thing they need to fix on the B-17 is that IT IS FUCKING PAPER how can I fight in such a piece of SHIT

1 Like
64

Ah, good ol’ Smigol.

65

Unfortunately that seems to be the goal of many heavy bomber players. Wanting to not participate in gameplay elements and be given free kills (as it was in 2013) seems to be their goal.

1 Like
66

Bombers should be given a higher health as my b29 gets its tail ripped off one tap by the jets which catch up so easily to my altitude.

1 Like
67

There is no such things as “health”,…

But i do agree Damage Model of Bombers should be revised accordingly to Fighter size:

Currently a bomber shares as much “wing areas” as does a Fighter (3 - inner-medium-tip).

But a fighter wingspan is about 3 to 8 meters long at best.

Meanwhile Medium to Heavy bombers have wings of 10 to 30 meters.

Obviously the damage you take on, let’s say Medium area of the wing, is accumulating damage over 3 to 10 meters of wing span, while the fighter only have 2 to 4 meters of wingspan being damaged.

And it’s far easier to focus one wing area on a bomber because of that.