Oh wow, a bomber - which is already less maneuverable than a fighter - has to use keybinds for max roll/yaw/pitch like in Sim Battles and the more maneuverable fighter gets to play the game using AB and RB controls? Wow that totally makes my point invalid /s.
The problem is that none of the arguments thus far have had much at all to do with skill. Most arguments I’ve been bringing up are comparisons to real life and the technical and crew differences between a bomber and a fighter.
My dude this thread is called “It’s time to fix heavy bomber gameplay in air RB.”
Depends on what you mean, if you’re talking exclusively on the yes/no question of “do they have AI gunners?” then you’re correct but if you include the question of “how maneuverable are heavy bombers in comparison to fighters?” or “what is the firepower difference between heavy bombers and fighters?” then you would be wrong.
We are asking for similar changes, yes, but that does not mean the changes need to be as extreme to make the airframes the exact same as in 2013. I have seen videos and the like about how the airframes were performing yet I am still asking for buffs for (heavy) bombers because they are so massively underperforming it’s not even funny.
You have not demonstrated this, you just said essentially “any buffs to the AI gunners (even though right now they can’t shoot until 0.21km which is both unrealistic and also literally useless for defense) would make them instantly as OP as 2013.”
Improving survivability is one of the other major things bomber players want improved, so we agree that the damage model of bombers needs to be buffed. You also forgot to mention the issue of the empennage’s being to weak and getting cut off to virtually anything, though.
Is fighter able to bring as much payload as you do in a heavy bomber? No,…
The whole comparison of fighter to Bomber maneuvrability is non-sense since they’re meant for Completely opposite roles,…
All people use keybinds already in AB and RB,… even on fighters in to max out the pitch or roll response,…
therefore i don’t know on what you’re on about.
You specifically bring comparison argues which are none-sense.
But OP bring in Skill argues aswell.
You did however answered to me about skill argues, and so i continued on.
Then you better check on survivability against ammunition instead of willing AI Gunners have laser precision aim,… (which is the reason they were buffed in the first place,… because in SIM Battles playing a bomber was far more easier than AB/RB just because no fighter would approach deadly laser precise gunners)
Gaijin also consider than using gunner yourself ain’t hard, and that it doesn’t block you to drop bombs aswell.
I demonstrated that the current buff is not taking into account game design, and that they shouldn’t reach 2013 yes.
Thus, as OP is directly asking to have back the gunners of 2013, that’s what i demonstrated that the thread is a non-sense.
OP also forgot other kind of aircraft on the sole purpose to bring only the Heavy aircraft (which have nothing else to do than cruising and watching out for ennemy fighters, until it reached bombing point, then doing the same as before to reach airfield).
On which, several other type of aircrafts are impacted,… and yet i didn’t even bringed in the infamous Il-28 Tail gunner, known by many.
I would start by improving Bombers survivability, through damage model, before anything else currently because if you start by buffing gunners, there would be no interest in buffing Damage Models → as the current thread is asking to see the same 2013 AI gunners as they were.
The Tail is section sadly is as week as it should for most aircrafts,… only some bomber tails should be considered under a bug report.
Sidenote: maybe you didn’t expected OP to be blatantly asking for the 2013 AI Gunners, but here it is.
I mention it because of how easy a time fighters already have in aiming because they are aiming at a slow-maneuvering bomber while the bomber has to aim at a fast maneuvering fighter.
I mention it because the fighters have access to flying with a mouse using the instructor, meaning they can maneuver much more precisely than a bomber which is stuck using max pitch/roll/yaw keybinds. Essentially:
Fighters -
Can maneuver very precisely with varying levels of input using mouse aim
Can also maneuver very hard but not precise using max deflection keybinds
Bombers when using manual aim -
Cannot maneuver very precisely with varying levels of input using mouse aim
Can maneuver very hard and not precise using max deflection keybinds
What do you mean? Comparison to functionality in real life is nonsense? A fighter IRL only having one crew to gun and fly being represented accurately in game is fine but a bomber IRL using one/two people to fly and then multiple other people to shoot guns (represented by AI gunners in game) isn’t fine?
What do you mean by this? Like genuinely I don’t get what you’re trying to say.
If you’re trying to suggest that the gunners are too tanky/have too much health, I would say that is inaccurate since I have maxed out gunner crews that die extremely quickly whenever a fighter shoots anything at me.
This is technically true, but means you have to fly at a constant heading and hope that your bombs will hit a bombing target without you going into bomber sight view.
What do you mean by this? I don’t think people asking for the AI gunners to start shooting at realistic distances and to have a buff to accuracy is the same as taking it to laser-accurate levels of overpoweredness.
This is another problem that doesn’t have anything to do with whether or not bombers should get survivability or AI gunner buffs, this is a Gaijin match-design/objectives-design issue. Tim’s Variety War Thunder (a channel on youtube) made a great video on possible bomber gameplay and match changes to make bombers more viable and engaging to play if you want to see some suggestions.
I don’t really agree with this sentiment, because I mean you have to admit that the AI gunner shooting range of 0.21km is literally ridiculous. Even if Gaijin pretty much changed only the damage model like you suggest, they should increase the effective range to a more realistic 0.8km (US turret gunners were trained to start shooting at 1.0-1.2km, but for the sake of idk appealing to you I guess the 0.8km range to match the aiming guide of AB and the max gun convergence of AB/RB/SB would be balanced).
Maybe, I definitely know that the B-17’s need to be looked at.
Here’s my idea, which is largely centered around the top prop bombers but IMO would improve all BRs
Lower BRs of late prop bombers so they can defend themselves
Higher altitude bomber spawn
Much higher AF health so it’s not one-passed by a pair of bombers
Make bases respawn so tactical bombers don’t have to go for the AF
Make bases not necessary to target the AF so strategic bombers don’t have to circle around trying to hit these small, spread out targets before going for the big one
Lower repair costs
Long-range heavy AA at AF (this would just be cool)
Most speed difference encountered at bombers going through ennemy fighter coming in head on
But a fighter coming in by behind only have 100 to 230 km/h difference → this is not difficult to aim at, as i shall remember you did the same with M16 SPAAG and aircrafts were flying with a 300 to 550km/h speed differential.
So… basically that’s an excuse to not trying to take over gunner control
The keybinds can be set to use Relative controls, therefore you can adjust every moves in order to slightly increase it.
That’s settings issue → hard to do, because nothing is explain in the control option menu.
Then what about the 1600 mens required for Battleships,… see how this is none-sense.
The game is allowing you to use the vehicule,… and it’s the limit between a Game and Real life.
Therefore such comparison is inadequate.
No i mean:
→ change Damage Model(for what i’ve said or something different but similar) should be done.
→ gunner change should be last to be made, as it is far more impactful
As told earlier → easy to do.
Re-read the thread,… OP clearly ask to see back the 2013 gunners.
Nope, they should be seen aswell in the same time as Gunner parameters are set for the smwhole game and not only Bombers.
I would wait to have the Damage model change.
Because such parameters are the same for every modes,… therefore it is impacting the Simumator mode aswell → reason why it have been nerfed previously
I can only push you to create bug reports on this subject.
I don’t play ground, so I’m not sure what you’re referring to.
Yes, but that is at best 50% of the time. The other half of the time happens at the beginning of the match with a fighter coming at a (somewhat) headon, and every fighter can one-pass kill a bomber right now. Regardless, the manual aiming is much more difficult than you think, their ballistics don’t seem to work the same as other guns - the main issue being that their velocity seems to be much slower than other bullets (looking at the 12.7mm turrets of the B-17’s and B-29).
From what this sounds like, it means you need to set a lot more keybinds just to have a poor facsimile of what fighters get automatically.
My man I literally play naval and the AI gunners actually work, shoot on their own, and are accurate. This is not a great comparison lol.
My dude “impactful” should not be anonymous with “working at all,” which is the current issue with the RB max AI gunner range value.
Not if you’re trying to maneuver and dodge a fighter while using the crappy controls you get in manual aiming mode while also trying to guess if the bombs will actually drop where you want them to.
I assume you mean this quote:
I don’t think he’s saying “it should go exactly back to that,” more of “the guns were obviously effective back then as the fighter mafia complained so much that they were made useless.”
I don’t even know what you’re saying here lol.
Why should they be nerfed to uselessness in Sim too? I don’t see how a 0.21km shooting range is realistic or helpful in any way.
Looks like I’ve never seen a good bomber player ever in my time playing this game then.
Well at this point it seems that your game experience is not showing you what you should do.
Especially when is see the “50% of the time they come from a head-on”
It’s your choice to keep going forward to them.
Use your mouse, change Heading, press manual gunner control and light up the fighter trying to approach you.
As most of the time the ennemy fighters would also attack the other bomber of your team, if you’re able to kill the 1/2 guys coming for you, you’ll have objective on which you can drop your payload.
you’re so inexperienced in Bomber gameplay, that most of my remark are unknown to you, considred useless or again making you wish for AI gunners that are OP instead.
You’re inexperience is again showing when co.fronted with other gamemodes, or others Aircrafts sizes :
→ Gunner parameters in which they’re forced to fire at 0.21km is set for EVERY type of aircrafts → no way this parameters should be talked only for Heavy Bomber.
→ Simulator Gamemode is much more easy on bombers because they do not have to worry about:
Engine torque
Stability
Distance to the ennemy
Stall speeds
Aiming precisely (try using a joystick and aim to a bomber → not as easy as AB or RB)
Let’s talk about arcade mode:
Having AI gunners will not help since you’re given a lead point,…
so even if you were having fair AI gunners at 0.6km (base crew) and 0.9km (“As”+ full crew):
It would serves nothing as the fighters would start to tip you off at 1.2km (when experienced)
In RB most players do not fire until 0.7km (as they have been teached in arcade) → only a very few people try to shoot from 0.9km(and even less at 1.1km)
What i’m trying to say is :
None of you or OP did take into account all the differences in between the game,…
In resume of you and OP:
you’re asking for something useful in RB mode, you’re asking for something OP in simulator,
You’re asking for something useless in arcade,
You’re asking for something that would impact not only Heavy bombers but Medium bombers, light bombers, attackers, and even some heavy fighters
→ not taken into account that the game is designed that way
Why do you think those?
Because you and OP are unable to Make gameplay changes or decisions:
When you see a fighter you continue to go head-on on it, because the base you want to drop on is behind him → wrong thing to do
When you see a fighter, you start turning with it(?):
→ even more wrong, as you’re losing:
speed
base heading
distance between you and your chasing ennemy
That’s why i (with the most bomber time experience) came here to say every of those previous points you thinks true are WRONG.
Here i came and give detailled explannations:
→ i don’t think you need to have better control mode anyway–> i did however explainned to you that you can have easy controls (and no they do not require you to bind 200 buttons,… just to adjust the options behind current keybinds)
→ Gamedesign and game parameters,namely:
Making bomber players have to do something instead of having 2 button to click on
AI gunners are the same for every bombers
AI gunners are the same for every attackers/heavy fighters
AI gunners are the same for every game mode
→ that’s why DAMAGE MODEL should be done first as it is equal to every mode and could be set specifically to Heavy and Medium Bombers
It is the best solution as it doesn’t:
→ make Bombers OP in Sim battles
→ make Arcade player crying on the useless AI gunner update
→ make every Attackers and light bomber/dive bomber OP fighters with insane firing abilities in AB/RB/Sim modes (i would have easy time using a SBD-3 and similar in each of those Modes if you do AI gunner update)
I can agree that AI Gunners are worthless, and might need some tweaking, but i do not agree on Your and OP way to do it,… as they are both inadequate to the game balance.
Come back with a proposal that is:
→ Easy to implement for Gaijin (coding wise)
→ Easy to implement for Gaijin (file wise)
→ Adjustable to every type of aircrafts (and not only Heavy bomber, which are undefined by OP btw)
→ Taking into account the various game modes
And in the meantime:
→ adjust your gameplay, by using advices i gave you
→ advocate for a damage model change as explainned here, or similar:
That’s my line.
Just adding a community manager @Stona_WT in this thread.
The thread is a community POV over bomber aircrafts and the way they’re modeled in WT being wrong, aswell as Community having 2 main proposals:
→ Changing AI gunners parameters (but i’m against the way it is proposed here)
→ Changing Damage Model depending on aircraft size (my own quote in this post - might need some tweaking too)
In which, i would have a feedback from Devs, with:
→ a rating of proposals
→ a quick explanation on each rating
→ if the proposal would be worked on or not
And maybe:
→ another idea of what to do?
This very much depends on the engagement range; if they are coming at me from a 30 degree angle and they are closer than 4km out, I will likely still be turning by the time they are within 0.8km (and since I would be banking I would be giving them a much larger target to hit than in a slight headon).
Again how do you consider a 0.21km firing range to be not useless?
Cool, then change it for all turret-ed aircraft, as AI gunners are useless for all turret-ed aircraft right now.
I think you mean that in Sim you do have to worry about all this stuff, right? Also I switched to PC from xbox because I know how difficult it is to aim using a joystick, but I was always more effective with a joystick than the AI gunners.
So being able to focus on defensive flying is not helpful?
So enemy fighters being able to shoot 3.5x sooner than the AI gunners isn’t a massive advantage somehow?
Notice how none of us mentioned arcade because the AI gunner firing range is actually somewhat useable at like 0.65km or whatever it is. Arcade has a different number than RB and Sim, and the RB/SB number is the one that is useless.
Easy to implement for Gaijin (coding wise) → Change the RB/SB start shooting value from 0.21km to 0.7km. Easy change, literally one variable, effects all planes, and only effects RB/SB (as there are tow different values for arcade and RB/SB).
Interesting discussion…
I will add a few observations of my own…
I kind of liked the British heavy bombers… probably some kind of personal obsession… :-)))
At the moment I am at most with the first Lancaster…
Method…
examination of all the modules of the plane
if I don’t have a lot of courage, it is necessary to use airstart, deploy the heaviest bombs and bomb only the bomb base
during airstart, fly and climb slightly to the side and follow the development of the game, look for open spaces and do not let yourself be immediately illuminated by enemy aircraft or ground AI … so fly at a distance of more than 10 km from the nearest enemy…
if the enemy has targeted me, I turn towards my own base, either it discourages the enemy and he flies away, which is good and I repeat the whole attack procedure, or he gets closer and in that case you have to try to maneuver and use defensive shooting. .option 2 has a relatively low success rate that I will come out victorious … need to learn how to shoot and maneuver…
5.if I decide to land launch, I will only load bombs with low tonnage (14x250lb to 14x1000lb), not blockbusters…
I fly with a low climbing flight to the side, but I don’t climb very high, I observe the battle and either choose a free bomb base, or a free space with bunkers and ground AAA (be careful, on some maps they are very dangerous), of course, the bomb explosion timer is set ( 2-3 sec)
I watch the battle, if my team loses significantly, I go back to the airfield and it’s usually game over … one bomber against maybe 3 enemy fighters doesn’t stand much of a chance, it depends on how much the player can use defensive gunners…
in case the team is winning and I believe in myself, I can try to support my own fighters with support fire, usually the game is already on the ground, but the plane must already be without bombs and the area around you must be guarded…
premium account is not harmful…
etc. etc.
Bomber play is pretty high league in this game…
The main task of the bomber is, if possible, not to be noticed until the last moment … displaying markers is a big betrayal for bombers …
Night battles, were canceled … the fighters did not have it so easy and then they cried hard …
The 3 person view for fighters is very beneficial, try to shoot down the bomber only from the view from the cockpit of the fighter …
The maps are easy to remember and always the same, if the fighter finds a place, he just waits for the bomber to fly right under his nose…
Bombers fly mainly solo, so there is no possibility of concentrated defensive fire from the defensive box…
These are just a few observations from the game and do not at all guarantee success when playing with heavy bombers…
I believe that the players have other experiences, they can share …
The current situation in ARB for bombers is what it is, so it has to be played like that…
Gaijin keeps track of the success of all planes and if a machine was over successful and earning too much SL then the devs would intervene so I don’t expect any changes anytime soon…
That you’re not supposed to rely on AI gunners,… buff the range and nobody will ever try to aim manually the gun,… flying straight forward and just pressing the spacebar.
That having them buffed first is stupid for the rest of the troubles of Bombers,…
That being stupidly stubborn on that point because it visually what troubles you at first is not going to help the game,… you or even gameplay
Fly it better and you’re untouchable,… that’s a reality that only Non Brain dead players are able to see.
The Tu-4 is the only being hard to play but those 23mm guns are able to hit a jet up to 2.5km away when the ennemy is coming from behind and up to 1.9km in front.
The B-29 is the only being hard to play, because you’re surrounded by jets, but those .50cals guns are able to hit a jet up to 2km away when the ennemy is coming from behind and up to 1.6km in front
The fighters mostly(when the gun ain’t a 37mm/50mm/75mm+) can fire at 1.8-2km when coming from the front, but only 0.8-1.1km when coming from behind → that the principle of speed differential.
Being stubborn to fly straight to a base is the only thing that makes bombers free xp pinatas.
“Being stubborn to fly straight to a base is the only thing that makes bombers free xp pinatas.” What are you supposing heavy bombers do besides fly from A to B bombing targets? Not to mention heavy bombers can’t really just fly off into the corner of the map now and hide when Gaijin purposely makes planes appear larger than they are in the horizon. The only way to play them is to fly high as possible.
Despite a lot of your posts makes sense (and are unfortunately imho a waste of time if people refuse to accept realities) you are on the wrong path regarding gun ranges.
As a passionate B-18B and P-47 D-30 (Italy) user you might recheck your values.
Depending on speed (assume speeds above 500 kmph TAS at high alt) 0.50 cal bullets hit fired from a tailchasing fighter up to 1.8 km (if he uses 800 m convergence) and produce hit, crits, fires and kills reliably from 1.2 to 1.6 km. I open fire at 1.8 km with AP- IT whilst diving on enemies with good results.
On the receiving end in a B-18B i notice hits at 1.8 and crits (almost always AP-IT) at around 1.4 -1.6 km.
In a defensive use in a turret they hit a fighter closing in from behind at least up to 2.4 km (just watch the last Jengar B-17 vid). The Swedish 13.2 mm cannon (it is not a HMG) in a turret has an even greater range, i recorded years ago a kill at 2.74 km (a SB2C).
I agree that you outrun almost every 20mm cannon shell >1.4 km but the problem is that most bomber pilots are not turning away from fighters at the right point in time. And they are too slow as they refused to climb in order to exchange alt for speed if necessary.
This discussion of 0.21 km ai range is plain stupid; every experienced pilot knows that ai gunners kill you if u tailchase enemy bombers at 0.6 - 0.8 km.
Ok, i use a joystick with the left hand to evade incoming fire and a mouse to use the turret gunners, but the guys relying on ai gunners deserve to die if they are unwilling to use manual gunners.
The key to survive in a bomber in wt is and was always to keep chasing fighters as long as possible inside you turret range, but outside their gun range; without the ability to dodge AND use manual gunners at the same time we talk about skill issues.
I watched the vid, u killed 4 noobs whilst flying a broken 1953 service turboprop vs WW2 props, just one (the 1st B-25) used manual gunners (but too late).
If the bomber players refuse to climb and are unable to turn away from you in order to spray you down outside the range of your own guns - they are ez kills.
Repeating the same nonsense over and over again is just annoying. Ask any experienced P-61 pilot with several hundred matches in it - he will tell you about a hell of kill steals from your own ai gunner whilst attacking enemies.
You simply ask that the game is playing for you - instead of you playing the game.
With the same logic every tanker would claim the same - as he would just take the driver position - driving casually to the battlefield, expecting his ai commander to identify targets and his ai gunner killing them.