Italian F-104s are severely over-BR'd

Machinery of War Discussion Aircraft
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While the basic American F-104s sit at 9.3 BR where their speed is certainly a strenght, it cannot be said about all the other F-104s in the game.

We can take the Italian F-104s as a clear example:

F-104G

  • 11.0 BR
  • 2x AIM-9J
  • General Electric J79-GE-11
  • turn time of 33,9 seconds

By the way, the German F-104G is the exact same except it carries 4x AIM-9J.

F-104S

  • 11.3 BR
  • 6x AIM-9 or 4x AIM-9J + 2x AIM-7E
  • General Electric J79-GE-19 (about 1000 kgf more than J79-GE-11)
  • Same turn as Golf

The difference in capabilites between the Golf and Sierra are absolutely insane. The amount of your IR missiles triples and you also get access to a Sparrow while also getting a much better engine. Yet the difference is only 0.3 BR.

F-104S.ASA

  • 12.0 BR
  • 4x AIM-9L or 2x AIM-9L + 2x Aspide-1A (keep in mind the Aspide aim block sacrifices the Vulcan cannon)
  • Same engine as the normal Sierra
  • Same turn as the previous two
  • Finally a bit better radar

These BRs are absolutely bonkers given the air to air capabilites of these aircraft. Ask yourself if you’d enjoy fighting F-4s that have 8 missiles while you’re carrying mere 2 IR ones (in case of the Golf). All three of these F-104s are at least 0.7 BR higher than they should be. The F-104G and F-104S.ASA are the most wild, with the ASA being able to fight F/A-18s, F-16, F-15, MiG-29s, Su-27s…

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Isnt also ASA the lowest BR supersonic to get AIM-9Ls?

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F-5A(G) with 9L at 11.0 (there are other examples too):

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Right, my bad.

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The F-104S is correctly BR’d, it is to the F-4E what the F-15E is to the F-15JM/C/BazM.
The F-104S can bring all of its missiles plus a base load of napalm as one of the fastest jets at its BR.
F-104G’s primary difference is that it’s slower and less missiles which have players prioritize it as a bomber.

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Are we playing the same game? The F-4E has a much better loadout and avionics than the F-104S, only losing in T/W. I really don’t understand your comparison to F-15E vs 13.7 F-15s. The F-104S isn’t even as fast as you make it sound, it sees MiG-21s and MiG-23s all the time, both of those are basically just as fast while not sacrificing nearly as much maneuverability.

If you consider being able to bomb bases relevant to BR balancing, then I really don’t follow. Bombing bases in a fighter provides no benefit to your team and ultimately to victory, quite the opposite. A fighter’s ARB BR should be based on how effective it is in air to air, where the Italian F-104G is tragically lacking. I also have to repeat that the difference in BR between the G and S is 0.3 even tho the S is better in every single aspect.

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Mig-21s are slower; Mig-23MLs are slightly faster, and that’s it in that regard.

The difference in acceleration between F-104S and F-4E is extremely similar to the difference between F-15E and F-15C.
And both F-104S and F-15E sacrifices sustained turn for that extra speed.

Also I personally won a match on Road to Grozny using the F-104S as the sole survivor on my team by bombing and hitting ground targets, as that was the only thing I could do against the last opponent on the enemy team.
Do not underestimate the impact PVE actions have, especially for the multi-role F-104s that are the G and S.

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100% with you they have simply no reason to be this high and with them being an important part of the TT it’s almost mandatory for them to be lowered.

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Just barely, while being much more maneuverable.

F-15E is still very dominant in air to air while the F-104s at these BRs are really lacking.

You wouldn’t have to bomb if the F-104 was lower in BR and thus a relevant threat in air to air, would you?

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not much and they have no problem at outrunning you or out climbing you most of the times if you are stock and if you are spaded than they probably won’t out climb you but still chase you down regardless

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Right? Currently grinding the Italian air tree, bought the F-104G and bought a expert crew for SL on it, it was just then that I realised I had ground battles set and saw 10.0 BR instead of the actual 11.0 air battles BR. Waste of SL if you ask me. Decided to still give it a shot and I just couldn’t stand it. I just bought the MiG-21MF as soon as I could and it’s a much better experience. I’d even say the 10.3 MiG-21 is a better fighter than the 11.0 F-104G.

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I put myself trough the pain of playing all 3 F104 and the only one i managed to do slightly well so far is the F-104S only because of the sparrows even if they are useless under 1.5 km, I went for J35XS that were flying high and full of their “superior swedish technology”. I still don’t have a positive K/D in any of them.

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The F-104S should be 11.0 unless Gaijin buffs the airframe, and the ASA should be 11.3 since it’s not considerably better than the J-8B.

The other F-104s not in the italian tree should also be rebalanced.

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Don’t forget the 104S TAF at 11.0BR that doesn’t even have Limas. It’s stuck with Papas and base 7 Echoes.

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The J-8B has only rear aspect missiles. On top of that the 9L F-111s are 11.7.

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But it has the same SARH missiles, it can carry a gun with it’s SARH’s, it has much better flight performance, and a better RWR. The only thing that’s better on the F-104S ASA, is it’s radar and IR missile.

I honestly can’t see how the F-104S ASA is worthy of a higher BR than the Mig-23s, or even the F-4E or J-8B.

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Spoiler: It is not.

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This difference has no reason to exist.

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As they are curently, the BRs should, in my opinion, be as follows:

F-104G (including the German one) - 10.3
F-104S - 11.0
F-104S.ASA - 11.7, just because of the AIM-9Ls and Aspide-1A coupled with a radar that makes them usable.

This is imo the absolute highest these should be. Arguably could also go additional 0.3 BR lower, but that would be too much to ask.

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Remove all bombs/napalm and I’ll be fine movin em down.