Italian Bell P-39Q Airacobra

[Victory_799-psn]

@MuccoPazzino

Sorry, i don’t remember voting no, but i surely would vote no again. For a very simple reason:
I do not want hungarian vehicles in italy.

Well they’ve already been added since half a year ago, so that ship has sailed.

@MuccoPazzino

As simple as that. People think hungarian sub line is saving italy, wich is not true.

It is mostly positively received by the WT community, and has further popularised the Italian TT. It has significantly improved Italian lineups, and made the high tier air tree very strong.

@MuccoPazzino

But the main reason why i don’t want them is because by focusing on adding hungarian vehicles Gaijin will forget about the domestic designs that italy had.

Are you actually serious with this argument? This is your main reason? How many times does this argument need to be debunked, Gaijin themselves have repeatedly even said that just because they are working on a subtree for country X doesn’t mean that country X’s indigenous vehicles are not being worked on! Take the AMX and Leopard 40/70 for example, both being added after the recent Hungarian subtree. Gaijin won’t “forget about Italy” just because they model a few Hungarian stuff. Just like they didn’t forget about the UK and Sweden when they modelled South African and Finnish vehicles! This is a terrible and false argument to justify not wanting a subtree that helps out your TT in some places where it can’t get much more.

@MuccoPazzino

I find it crazy that you can’t understand how hypocritical your opinion is: you welcome hungary vehicles, even copy pastes and not italian? I understand that you are probably hungarian and want as much hungarian vehicles as you can, but most of the vehicles hungary developed had one prototype flying, and either never entered service or entered service just to get tested and then NOT getting mass produced.
So you would rather see IN ITALY more hungarian copy pastes and prototypes and not italian vehicles that have not only entered service but also used in combat.
Interesting point of view…

That’s because you’re simply making up “my opinion” for me and saying things I never said.

I never said I don’t want Italian vehicles in the game! I literally am an Italy main and love playing indigenous Italian vehicles. I also like indigenous Hungarian vehicles, which is why I support their addition to a place they already have (Hungarian subtree line).

I don’t like copy-paste vehicles, neither Italian, nor Hungarian and in all of my subtree suggestions, you’ll see that I clearly made an effort to minimise copy-pastes. However there is a distinction between the Italian copy-paste you are suggesting here and the Hungarian copy-paste that I included in my Hungarian air subtree suggestion: the Hungarian copy-paste jets are necessary to fill out the high ranks of the Hungarian aviation subtree, and on top of that they are useful for Italy, providing them with much more, often better options. For example, the Tu-2S-59, IL-28, and Su-22M3 all provide bomber/striker aircraft to the higher ranks that Italy couldn’t fill in with their own aircraft. The rank VII and VIII Hungarian jet fighters are often better/more options for players, making the high ranks of Italy air much more fun and capable. Therefore, these aircraft are useful and necessary copy-pastes, which is why I can accept them.

However, what you are suggesting is a rank II-III BR 2.7-3.7 fighter, of which the Italians (+Hungarians) have enough indigenous designs. Italy has 9 (of which 2 are not Italian) and Hungary could have 2-3 indigenous fighter designs in this BR range. So this copy-paste is absolutely unnecessary overkill and isn’t needed, and provides nothing new/useful. Besides, this aircraft is already in the game if someone wants to play it. This is why I don’t support this. My opinion is not hypocritical, you just misunderstood it.

When it comes to more useful Italian copy-pastes, like the P-47 that filled an important gap, or many of the rank V-VIII Italian copy-paste jets which were the only available options at their ranks and were important to give Italy more than 8 jets throughout these ranks, I am fine with them because they make sense and are needed. But the approach to add in every single copy-paste vehicle that Italy ever used is just dumb. It’s a waste of time for Gaijin, clutters and dilutes the indigenous designs, and unless the copy-paste vehicle is needed or useful, simply just a wasteful addition. I can’t believe you advocate for this kind of approach, yet don’t want to see indigenous vehicles from other countries just because they aren’t Italian.

Btw plenty of Hungarian aircraft; copy-pastes, Hungarian-built aircraft, and even Hungarian indigenous designs saw mass production and service/combat.

@MuccoPazzino

(Btw italy is not all copy paste, like you wrote in another reply, i will count the copy pastes for you as soon as i find minute.)

I never said that Italy is all copy-paste. I just pointed out that they have quite a lot.

@MuccoPazzino

Also i can’t find a single original picture of your WM-23, just X-rays, you do understand that’s not really enough to get it added right?

Well maybe look at the 3 original pictures of the WM-23 that I included in my suggestion and labelled. Not sure what you mean by “X-rays”. And I do understand that this is perfectly enough for it to be added, since it was a fully completed and tested prototype, which passes the requirements easily. 3 original surviving photos are also enough, there isn’t even a surviving photos requirement.

[Victory_799-psn]

If enough Italian domestic designs have been suggested, then just support those. You don’t need to spam suggest every single copy-paste under the sun, most of which Gaijin is probably aware that Italy used.

[MuccoPazzino-psn]

@Victory_799

This is a terrible and false argument to justify not wanting a subtree that helps out your TT in some places where it can’t get much more.

False, take a walk in the italian suggestions i guess, because you clearly have no idea what you are talking about. Italy has actually more than enough indigenous aicrafts to cover all the “empty” spots in the techtree.

The issue i am trying to point out is how adding a whole copy-paste sub-tree instead of actually adding that nation’s vehicles is crazy enough, with no need to put more irons in the fire, suggesting more hungarians vehicles, indigenous or not.

@Victory_799

If enough Italian domestic designs have been suggested, then just support those. You don’t need to spam suggest every single copy-paste under the sun, most of which Gaijin is probably aware that Italy used.

I made this suggestion so that it is on the forum and technically there is proof of players knowing about this and wanting this, like other aircrafts in game.

@Victory_799

Well maybe look at the 3 original pictures of the WM-23 that I included in my suggestion and labelled.

in one of them you can’t recognize the plane, another one is all snowy and can see the silhouette and the insignia, and the last one looks a lot like a mockup, but i’ll give it to you that maybe a correct 3D model it’s still possible.

@Victory_799

I never said that Italy is all copy-paste. I just pointed out that they have quite a lot.

@Victory_799

Do people even realise how much of the Italian TT is American/German/British copy-paste?

That sounds pretty much like saying “it’s all copy-paste”, but fine.

I included all the italian (only italian and no premiums) vehicles and pointed out as copy pastes even the ones that only maintained the original design but was completly modernized.
Planes: 62 total vehicles 12 copy pastes: 19% of the tree
Tanks: 61 total vehicles 14 copy pastes: 22 % of the tree
Helis: 4 total helis and only the AB 205 is based on a foreign deisgn
Navy: 0 copy pastes
So around 20% of air and ground vehicles tree is copy paste (wich is not even that much), but we don’t count the vehicles that italy received and changed, so that now in warthunder you can only play those features in italy, the number drops even more.
Now imagine it again, but with all the suggestions made for Italy: The number drops to near zero, even with just half of them it gets really low, it’s all about actually adding vehicles.

And to finish this off, i would like to make you notice that , first of all the plane it’s not useless, but most importantly this suggestion is meant to wake up Gaijin a little and maybe start adding vehicles that would “fix Italy”, i don’t really care if the P39 gets added to Italy or it doesn’t, but seeing this many suggestions for Italy maybe will ring a bell that yells: WAKE UP IT’S TIME TO START DOING YOUR JOB INSTEAD OF PUTTING A HUNGARIAN INSIGNIA OVER SOVIET PLANES AND SEND IT.

[MapleVII-live]

I think tech trees should get all of there operated vehicles, people will say “Bu-Bu-But Sim!!!” Without realizing that vehicles of the same origins have faced each other before

Also on note of those Hungarian aircraft, only 4-5 of those would actually be worth adding to the game, otherwise fill in Romanian vehicles until they get a tt (like German-Italian Joint tree)

Edit; Thirdly, i think adding Hungary in the way they did was just outright horrendous, it shouldn’t even have been a sub tree, they dont even have enough vehicles to make a sub tree outside of ground (no, Russian jets do not count) i would say otherwise if they actually had domestic cold war jet and tank designs, but they obviously don’t.

[Victory_799-psn]

@MuccoPazzino

False, take a walk in the italian suggestions i guess, because you clearly have no idea what you are talking about. Italy has actually more than enough indigenous aicrafts to cover all the “empty” spots in the techtree.

Sure… then point me to the Italian rank V jet bomber… or maybe the high rank IV Italian bomber… or maybe the rank VII strike aircraft that isn’t the AMX, or maybe the plethora of rank VII+ 10.0+ aircraft that Italy doesn’t seem to have. Or the dozens of not yet added WW2 Italian tank designs, which also don’t seem to exist because Gaijin filled it out with German/British/American copy-pastes and “Pizza trucks” (as the community likes to call the unarmoured gun trucks). Then I also have to ask, if Italy has enough to cover every empty gap in the TT, then why after so many years have Gaijin not filled those gaps and looked for alternative solutions instead, almost as if they don’t have the right vehicles to fill those gaps (e.g. look at the controversial Leopard 40/70 at a super low BR that was needed to fill out Italian mid tier AA, yet didn’t fit in well).

@MuccoPazzino

The issue i am trying to point out is how adding a whole copy-paste sub-tree instead of actually adding that nation’s vehicles is crazy enough, with no need to put more irons in the fire, suggesting more hungarians vehicles, indigenous or not.

Firstly, only the air subtree is purely copy-paste (so far, it is still incomplete). Secondly, how tf does that mean that I shouldn’t suggest indigenous Hungarian vehicles???

@MuccoPazzino

in one of them you can’t recognize the plane, another one is all snowy and can see the silhouette and the insignia, and the last one looks a lot like a mockup, but i’ll give it to you that maybe a correct 3D model it’s still possible.

Not my fault that better photos didn’t survive the war. But you were wrong to say that not a single original photo of it existed. Also we know perfectly well how it looked, considering 3D models for it have already been made.

@MuccoPazzino

That sounds pretty much like saying “it’s all copy-paste”, but fine.

No it doesn’t, I never said “all” or “most” or anything like that.

@MuccoPazzino

I included all the italian (only italian and no premiums) vehicles and pointed out as copy pastes even the ones that only maintained the original design but was completly modernized.
Planes: 62 total vehicles 12 copy pastes: 19% of the tree
Tanks: 61 total vehicles 14 copy pastes: 22 % of the tree

Planes: 13/62 copy-pastes; 20.97% (21%)
Tanks: 14/61 copy-pastes; 22.95% (23%)

@MuccoPazzino

Helis: 4 total helis and only the AB 205 is based on a foreign deisgn

Not exactly relevant, and there are barely any anyways.

@MuccoPazzino

Navy: 0 copy pastes

Well duh, there aren’t really copy-pastes in naval in general.

@MuccoPazzino

So around 20% of air and ground vehicles tree is copy paste (wich is not even that much)

More like 22%, which is nearly a quarter of the whole Italian tree… that is quite a lot… compare this to the Japanese air tree which has 7/86 copy-pastes (8%) and for ground 8/56 (14%), so an average of around 10%, which is less than half the copy-paste of Italy. The UK has 4/67 (6%) copy-pastes for ground and 2/98 (2%) copy-pastes for air, with an average of about 4%. Italy’s 22% is a lot compared to this. I think only China and Israel have a higher proportion of copy-pastes… and they have a reputation for being copy-paste trees.

@MuccoPazzino

And to finish this off, i would like to make you notice that , first of all the plane it’s not useless

It is. What is so useful about it that the dozens of rank II-III prop fighters can’t do?

@MuccoPazzino

but most importantly this suggestion is meant to wake up Gaijin a little and maybe start adding vehicles that would “fix Italy”, i don’t really care if the P39 gets added to Italy or it doesn’t, but seeing this many suggestions for Italy maybe will ring a bell that yells: WAKE UP IT’S TIME TO START DOING YOUR JOB INSTEAD OF PUTTING A HUNGARIAN INSIGNIA OVER SOVIET PLANES AND SEND IT.

Not gonna lie, but tons of people from several countries spam the suggestions thinking that quantity is better than quality, but that’s not going to make Gaijin suddenly notice anything and start working on indigenous Italian designs, so this isn’t some master strategy.

[Victory_799-psn]

@thethrill8284257

I think tech trees should get all of there operated vehicles, people will say “Bu-Bu-But Sim!!!” Without realizing that vehicles of the same origins have faced each other before

Well the vast majority of the community disagrees with you.

@thethrill8284257

Also on note of those Hungarian aircraft, only 4-5 of those would actually be worth adding to the game, otherwise fill in Romanian vehicles until they get a tt (like German-Italian Joint tree)

Ok, what are we supposed to do about the fact you hate Hungarian vehicles and you don’t think they are “worth adding”, even though there are 10-11 indigenous Hungarian vehicles you still don’t want half of these? Or any of the useful copy-pastes, yet you want every single Italian operated vehicle, even useless copy-pastes???

Then I can’t believe you would say you don’t want indigenous Hungarian aircraft, but you would want Romanian aircraft instead, one more non-Italian nation with a similar amount of indigenous and copy-paste vehicles as Hungary! Imo, only 4-5 Romanian aircraft are worth adding, so that would be a stupid addition!

And did you genuinely just suggest that Romania would eventually get a standalone TT, in the same comment that you think Hungary shouldn’t have even been a subtree!? You are crazy, you do realise Romania could never be a standalone TT and even as a subtree, they lost out to Hungary!

@thethrill8284257

Edit; Thirdly, i think adding Hungary in the way they did was just outright horrendous

Well obviously, nobody likes being given 10% of the original indigenous vehicles that a country could get, and then being flooded with copy-paste fillers.

@thethrill8284257

it shouldn’t even have been a sub tree

Yep, you are crazy. Finland’s copy-paste subtree is fine, Romania can apparently become an independent TT lol, Italy should get every copy-paste they ever had, but Hungary, with arguably more indigenous vehicles than both Finland and Romania shouldn’t even get a subtree. Wow, try convincing me you have nothing against Hungarian vehicles.

@thethrill8284257

they dont even have enough vehicles to make a sub tree outside of ground (no, Russian jets do not count) i would say otherwise if they actually had domestic cold war jet and tank designs, but they obviously don’t.

If they have enough vehicles for a ground subtree, then they should get a subtree. How comes you aren’t saying South Africa shouldn’t be a subtree?

Since when was an air subtree about the jets? Also, you think the Finnish air subtree is fine? Hungary has more indigenous aircraft than the Finnish air subtree. Oh, and at that rate, Romania wouldn’t have enough ground vehicles for a subtree (yet alone a standalone TT), so by your logic Romania shouldn’t be a subtree either because it doesn’t have the perfect amount of both indigenous ground and air vehicles.

And finally, Hungary does have a few domestic cold war ground vehicle designs, so please only talk about a subject if you know what you’re on about. Never have I read such a load of rubbish.

[MapleVII-live]

@Victory_799

you still don’t want half of these? Or any of the useful copy-pastes, yet you want every single Italian operated vehicle, even useless copy-pastes???

Putting words in my Mouth

@Victory_799

And did you genuinely just suggest that Romania would eventually get a standalone TT, in the same comment that you think Hungary shouldn’t have even been a subtree!?

The region surrounding Romania could be its own tech tree with the vehicles it has

@Victory_799

Finland’s copy-paste subtree is fine,

Also never said this, not even part of this conversation

@Victory_799

If they have enough vehicles for a ground subtree, then they should get a subtree. How comes you aren’t saying South Africa shouldn’t be a subtree?

South Africa actually has a full sub tree for ground, there was no reason for a hungarian sub tree, Italy didn’t need a subtree thay consists of low effort soviet planes.

Just because something has a ground subtree does not induce the need for an air subtree, Italy and Britain could’ve gone without one

[MapleVII-live]

@Victory_799

Well the vast majority of the community disagrees with you.

Does it now? The vast majority equals nothing if it is slient

[Colerend]

I will agree with this. This plane doesn’t bring anything interesting to the Italian tree. I would much rather prefer the Fiat G.55 based trainers.

[Colerend]

Dude you don’t need to write a essay every time you respond to someone. Please keep it short

[MuccoPazzino-psn]

@Victory_799

Not gonna lie, but tons of people from several countries spam the suggestions thinking that quantity is better than quality, but that’s not going to make Gaijin suddenly notice anything and start working on indigenous Italian designs, so this isn’t some master strategy.

Nah it’s not really about spamming so that maybe Gaijin will notice Italy, i wrote it down pretty badly, i mean that if there are a lot of high quality suggestions, Gaijin will not only understand that people care about getting something nice for Italy, but it will also have a huge pool to choose from.

[Victory_799-psn]

Yeah, you’re right… I write way too much, but points take a lot of explanation and support to be useful, but I guess I could just leave it at “No, I disagree.”.

[Victory_799-psn]

@MuccoPazzino

Nah it’s not really about spamming so that maybe Gaijin will notice Italy, i wrote it down pretty badly, i mean that if there are a lot of high quality suggestions, Gaijin will not only understand that people care about getting something nice for Italy, but it will also have a huge pool to choose from.

Ok, that makes a lot more sense, but I’m sure Gaijin can quickly find the copy-paste vehicles that Italy operated without needing to search on the forums. I think more obscure vehicles deserve the effort of suggestions.

Also, I don’t think Gaijin doesn’t care about Italy, I think they are understaffed and overworked with too many things to do and add, so it takes them years to add considerable amounts to countries like Italy. I think they are really harsh to the Italian TT in terms of BRs. So many Italian vehicles are really overtiered, like the Re.2005 fighting freaking F-84s! Or the G.91Y and YS… but overall Italy does have a lot of nice things to enjoy.

[Victory_799-psn]

@thethrill8284257

I think tech trees should get all of there operated vehicles, people will say “Bu-Bu-But Sim!!!” Without realizing that vehicles of the same origins have faced each other before

@Victory_799

Well the vast majority of the community disagrees with you.

https://img-forum-wt-com.cdn.gaijin.net/original/3X/d/6/d6f32a776458cc2646bcd6691eef94d2983dc76b.jpeg
Why are you trying to shift the topic of what I was replying to with a completely irrelevant poll?

I think the community doesn’t agree that tech trees should get every single vehicle they ever operated and you respond with a screenshot of the poll about this specific aircraft, rather than a poll on what we are talking about. Proper NPC behaviour.

Also, almost all suggestion polls have more yes votes than no votes. Usually the ratio is between 90-98% yes, so an 83% yes ratio (with only 58 voters) is not exactly a prime example of this vehicle having huge support. Bear in mind this is on the Italian aircraft suggestions section, if we asked the average WT player regardless of nation played, I think the ratio would be much lower.

[MuccoPazzino-psn]

Finally we agree i see 😅👍🏻 but i still think that suggesting something “copy paste” it’s not gonna harm as it will just be sent on the suggestion page along side all the others. It’s just that at least it’s there.

[Victory_799-psn]

Yeah, I guess there’s no harm in it.

[MapleVII-live]

Its finally settled

[jon_man1199]

I think the fear that Gaijin will forget about Italian stuff is less of a fear of that and more of a fear that Gaijin will end up adding a Hungarian vehicle over say an Italian vehicle that would fit in at the same BR

[Victory_799-psn]

Considering the Hungarian stuff are nicely “segregated” into their own lines with a few things like bombers, strikers and SPAAGs being mixed into the Italian lines, I think this ‘fear’ is unfounded. I mean the Hungarian bombers were not taking the place of anything it seems because from what I’ve seen the Italian bomber line didn’t seem to have much potential past rank III, and the strikers didn’t take the place of anything either. I’ve looked at all of the possible Hungarian strikers, bombers, and SPAAGs, and none of the ones that Gaijin are likely to add are competing with Italian designs for any limited spaces. Trust me, Gaijin would never waste their time doing any research into a Hungarian vehicle with little surviving information on it, when they could much easier just model a well-documented Italian vehicle. I don’t think this should be seen as Italian vehicle vs Hungarian vehicle competing for just one single space, when often both can be added and moved around at will.

[jon_man1199]

I think the fear is unfounded as well, based on what I’ve been able to see there are very few areas that anything could conflict