So in short is he wrong or right? I understood nothing :D
We don’t really know, -40dbsm might be real, or it might not. Personally, under some conditions I might agree, I doubt it for all around, and I’m pretty sure it’s a ‘hard no’ if considering all radar bands.
However, my point was more about being careful with sources because even the gov/usaf articles that speak on the ATF program generally just refer each other in a vicious circle.
Editing with Riccioni’s ATF criticism, highlighted the parts relevant to stealth:
2 Likes
The Arleigh Burke Black Sea story was proven to be completely fabricated by Russian propaganda. The story was built out of spoofed or fabricated social media posts and Russian state media exaggeration. The only thing true is that a Russian Su-24 aircraft flew multiple close passes near the ship like an idiot.
Like, the Khibiny system isn’t EVEN carried by the Su-24 at the time(still not the case now?) That’s just how low quality that propaganda was.
2 Likes
Also R-77M (at very least under intakes, but Id say its a safe bet for the wing pylons too)
well there is still no r77m official confirmation or a solid proof of it ( ik it uses it and i cant prove it )
4 on the wing
4-6 on the bay
2 under intakes
total of 10* fox3 with 2* fox1
quite good.
They did the same thing with a British Type 45 and for some reason consider not being shot down as proof of faults or ECM superiority.
Truly makes no sense.
2 Likes
Ah yes the famous “ram coating”
He’s a literal member of the fighter mafia, why would you take such a goofball’s take seriously, these are the same people who advocated for the the abandoning of the air to air missile. These people are senile old men who still think air combat looks like it did in WW2.
Btw if these guys had their way the f16 wouldnt have been the success it did, especially considering they thought the f15 was an overpriced over engineered dud. These people are fraudsters.
2 Likes
His criticism on many aspects of the ATF program is well founded, and he had insider info we do not - remember he also worked for Northrop beside the USAF.
While I do think he exaggerated on some points (i.e. F22 not being more maneuverable than a F15C), he was correct on others: weight requirements on the ATF were unachievable (the ATF requirement of a short take off was cut off, even without the extra weight from the reverse thrusters), price per plane at 35M was absolutely ludicrous (what’s the most recent figure again? 350M?), there was not really a need considering the geopolitical scenario (popped a balloon, so far), the F22’s software & hardware is hard to upgrade because everything is too tightly nested together instead of being a modular design, that it wouldn’t make sense to spend more to create a CAS or a bomber version that would end up with less payload than what already existed.
1 Like
He’s not even close to reliable source on anything. You cannot take these people seriously they lie like they breathe and peddle garbage.
Why would he have inside relevant knowledge, these people had no involvement in 90% of what they claim.
3 Likes
Because he literally worked on the ATF program for Northrop.
Lmao like they helped design the f15? Or the f16? Or the A10? (All of these are lies btw they had no hand on any of these aircraft thank God)
Why would they even hire this dude to work on a cutting edge stealth fighter, these people believe f16 should only carry as much fuel as they need to dogfight, they literally wanted the f15 to have no radar.
As I said these people lie ad much as they breathe. One of them was literally paid to go on Russia today
2 Likes
His position on lightweight fighters is well-known.
He was doing fuel-fractions & supercruise work on the ATF early on. Reminder that the 0.29 ff the USAF admits to nowadays was below his ideal. Interestingly, what’s one of the things the F22 is criticised for? Yeah, lack of range.
But did he, look at Pier Spray the biggest offender of the Fighter Mafia. Prior to his death he alleged to have worked on and designed the A-10 and the F-15. Turns out it was all lies and the sources he used were books written by his fellow fighter mafia to credit him.
Pier Spray thought Radars and missiles were an expensive waste of time and that the dogfighter would always win…
3 Likes
*F-16
even he knew he couldnt get away with claiming to work on the F15
4 Likes
I’m highly doubt that to be true, that’s identical to all of their other lies, and he’s the leader of the latrine. If you can find me a source that isn’t him or his friends that would be good.
They did try to make a competitor aircraft to the f15. It was never taken seriously but they did try.
Pier spray was just a particular vocal member who enjoyed fame thanks to lies that went under the radar, but make no mistake all of the other fighter mafia members were just as goofy and unhinged.
I actually argue that the in terms of real negative effects they had John Boyd was the biggest offender, he was one of the instructors during the Vietnam war that was more interested in looking good to rookies than teaching good doctrine whilst he wasn’t alone in teaching said doctrine he boneless was partly responsible for the bad very bad perfomance of us air power initially in Vietnam, and it’s even more disgusting that instead of recognizing said issue he was one of the main pushers of the whole “missile bad only reason the us recovered was because they added a gun1!1!1!1” argument(which is still something that people believe today) , mind you he never did any combat and he retired not long after, then this dude went on had a book written on him by his friends to boost their crap organization or and it’s the reason these incompetent dudes ever had any shred of popularity, Pierre spray was also disgusting as thanks to his lies(mind you they were all together in peddling said lies) he almost succeeded in stealing the accomplishments of real engineers that worked on the aircrafts. Both bad people but john Boyd had more tangible effects on the world.
1 Like
You can try finding someone that subscribed to the old e-mails from skunk works digest, it should be there if you care enough to dig it, I do not have copies of those.
Anyhow, the lenghty program, fuel fraction changes, % of materials aimed for from YF22 to F22, the weight increase and price-per-plane problems are also discussed in the ‘Advanced Tactical Fighter to F-22 Raptor: Origins of the 21st Century Air Dominance Fighter’ book, it’s written by people who worked at LM’s ATF program at the time. There are good historical insights into the state of stealth tech through out the many decades of the program.