yes I know thats why NATO coutries should have at least same SPAA or better
I mean if I’m being perfectly honest I would have to disagree
Not that Russia doesn’t get a lot of unnecessary and often poorly balanced vehicles, but that as a whole other countries just play fine for me if the game was ‘unnecessarily and overly screwed against anything non-RU in a very blatant manner’.
The Ka 50/52 thing is pretty cut and dry, they’re just the best no contest - but I’d still make the case that some other helicopters have some form of utility, with Chinese helicopters taking the role of AA, the Tiger UHT being able to F&F with the rotor-height camera allowing it to lob its 7km ATGMs from behind cover, and some other helicopters like the Rooivalk (although not as good obviously) being good enough in my opinion in the ground strike role in RB with the same 10km range and thermals (absent on the Ka-50). This isn’t to say other trees all fare that well since the US AH-64s definitely aren’t up to par (Hellfires being a bit too slow) and some other trees not even having proper top tier helis (Italy comes to mind).
For BVMs and other Russian tanks eating sideshots - yes but also no…?
They do sometimes survive the most bullshit of shells with ERA absorbing darts with 500+mm pen to the side at 100m and yes that is bullshit. However, that’s more to do with ERA modelling as a whole and the game’s code being pretty dodgy - I’ve seen shells do the same on German, French, British and basically every nation ingame for basically every tier. While ERA behavior and the internal spall liner modifiers in the code etc could definitely be fixed I just cannot agree with Russian tanks not dying to side or even just shots in general since I’ve bagged them without issue for the most part and have also survived equally as dubious circumstances in NATO vehicles.
The Pantsir problem is in my opinion the most overlooked problem in the game by the community - just not in the way you think. Right now planes spawn in at around the 12-15km mark for ground, putting you within a lot of SAM anti-aircraft vehicle’s range, including things like the Tor M1 and all the VT1 carriers. I am aware that the VT1s and Rolands are very bricked right now, but at longer ranges the VT1 isn’t as bricked as it is on closer launch ranges where it essentially flies straight for 3 or so seconds. However, if Gaijin pushed the air spawn of planes to be further out for ‘game balance’ the Pantsir gets the distinct advantage where it becomes the only AA that can engage vehicles at those maximum ranges. Right now the ranges mostly overlap and I rarely see people flying their CAS vehicles to the fullest potential to lob PGM-2000s over 15km etc, so for now most top tier SAMs all do the job fine.
Surprisingly, the XM1069 (ADATS) is still more than relevant as well, a pleasant surprise. People often lambast it for ‘lacking range’ (partially true as the max 10km range does not translate to full 10km due to drag etc) and being a ‘bad anti air’ - yet my experience in it has been seeing and downing helicopters, most of which were the very same Ka 50s and 52s people complained about, in a single or at worst two MIM146s with very high precision. While the US could use a longer ranged SAM AA as an example it certainly isn’t without merit and at the midranges between the Pantsir’s pure gun range and the range where its SAMs start pulling it finds itself a very common and handy niche.
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The problem is that NATO doesn’t have that many SAMs to fill those roles - since as we all probably know doctrinal differences are very much alive and well on the actual battlefield. Russia in essence spammed out ground based anti-aircraft defenses in order to defend itself against superior NATO air power, which they themselves more than knew they couldn’t contend with in a full on clash. However, since that overwhelming air advantage can’t exactly be replicated in a game without the sort of pre–planning and strategic communications between people prior, there’s just not really that great a way to make it that dominant outside of 4man squads in a VC planning everything in advance each game (very hard to do constantly).
That’s just an inherently unsolvable issue and frankly not much can ‘change’ that outside of something like HARMs being introduced to shake things up (an entirely different discussion)
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There is also a factor that playing SPAA is extremely boring . Gaijin decided to make them slow , carry low ammo capacity , and also air has to many ways to defend from it (like flying low for example) .
Therefore if people see CAS spam they simply leave the game instead of trying to play SPAA .
So we either should see a lot of exp/ SL boost for shooting down air , or a significant buff to SPAA so people actually want to play it .
I dont understand why EXP / SL reward for shooting down 600 Spawn point valued KA50 is the same as killing 70spawn points LAV .
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Honestly I think one of the easiest ways to do this is to just give the XM1069 proper AA spawn cost so that the second most popular ground tree can spawn in it lategame without the point penalty incurred by multiple spawns. If the problem with the XM1069’s anti-tank ability pushed it to be a TD in spawn cost I think in the current metagame it’s fine to switch it back to SPAA, seeing as it can’t fire on the move and you have to make the conscious choice of using it for either purpose. I carry the M247 and LAV-AD alongside my XM1069 for top tier both because I get use out of all 3 but also because often if I spawn in tanks even twice the XM1069 costs 400+ SP compared to the LAV and M247’s 90.
As for playing SPAAs being boring, I mean it’s personal preference I guess? I for one do enjoy using anything at my disposal to bring planes down however unorthodox the means, but I do also agree that a fair few people probably find it a bit too tedious. Flying low works, but if you know a plane initially spawned in, with some game sense and sound management it’s possible to catch them in the act so to speak and body them just the same. It’s a viable tactic but I also disagree on it being the be-all end-all defensive tactic against a SPAA that isn’t pure missiles (Pantsir, XM1069, 2S6 etc)
*This however is a legitimate defense against pure SAM carriers (Rolands, VT1s, 95Ya6 to some extent closer up although said platform has guns as well)
I think you could boost rewards for downing aircraft, but I’d actually argue top tier anti air is if anything extremely oppressive to the point where one SPAA can completely deny planes of any form of mobility. With the current SAM nerf it’s not really there now but before the nerf you’d see a single ItO 90M or FlaRakRad be able to annihilate anyone who spawned in with guided bombs trying to get high and drop bombs, and flying low back then didn’t have the extra tools like retarded bombs either so it was a very risky trade overall in my opinion. Aircraft can knock out a lot of tanks if left to their own devices, but for top tier in particular if the AA player is awake it’s not too hard to knock them out of the sky unless the plane pulls some extreme maneuvers or forfeits using guided ordinance by flying extremely low.
Ultimately though I still stand by what I said before - people have to suck it up and play SPAA like at low to midBRs if they run out of spawns for top tier to actually be more workable. People really need to prioritize having anti-air not because it’s fun but because aircraft are a tool in Ground RB as are helicopters, and if a tool you have can with some user skill near completely counter that tool I think it’s a worthwhile investment. People just don’t have as much anti-airs as midBR because of the long grind (which will become shorter next patch) and the people that do also just quite often leave without trying like they would at midBRs, so you get those one or two people wiping your defenseless team compared to them being shot down near instantly after your residential XM1069 or Pantsir wakes up and chucks a SAM at it.
EDIT: Also, to note, current SAM performance is at least from my observations a bug or unintended side effect of the nerfs they made, as Oxy points out in his final US TT video and as can be tested ingame, so I am cautiously optimistic it will be somewhat remedied in the future. I understand wanting to nerf higher tier anti-airs but things like Rolands are actually unusable against planes now, which I genuinely doubt was the intention of the patch.
I apprecieate your deep analysys mate and your effort into those posts. I`m not that expert in the game like you are .
On thing stands obvious to me , in any other simmilar game devs would not allow win rates of 75% for one nation . period . They would use any means to balance it out , here devs dont care or they are forced to spread russian propaganda since the owner is russian.
I’m also very grateful (like words cannot express how much I am levels) that you’ve kept it civil as well, most people who scream Russian Bias (often for the wrong reasons as well) just paint people as Gaijin shills or whatever when presented with the opposite which is just annoying to see honestly
On a less depressing note eh idk about the win rates. My personal take on it is that it’s a sort of perfect storm because Russia in real life focused on anti-aircraft vehicles over a dominant air force causes their ingame arsenal to be quite scary especially since they all perform up to standard unlike in real life where things break down or don’t work due to complications regardless of nation. That combined with the 27K being pretty solid as a CAS option and the Ka-50/52 being the two helicopters that were designed to fly without a tail (and helicopter damage models also just being shoddy all around) didn’t help, most definitely. The game was designed for WW2 planes originally and a lot of things ingame are kind of duct-taped together and are just really buggy compared to games built from the ground up to support their core game modes as well, especially since WT went from said plane game to a ground tank game with air and naval in player focus.
However, while Russia does have a really good roster all around for tanks, planes and helicopters it’s definitely not the only playable top tier nation, assuming people actually spawn in everything and don’t one life leave;
US has the M1s which are all around solid, HSTV-L as an alternative playstyle for people who want that, and the M1128, M3A3 with TOW-2Bs (personal favorite) or LAV-AD with rocket pods as well as the XM1069 for anti-air/support. It also now has the F-14B, a solid air to air platform that can also mount bombs and a thermal pod, F-4E and A-7s as well as the A-6E and A-10s for CAS, more than making up for the AH-64s being somewhat lackluster.
Germany has the FlaRakRad (currently not performing up to par, assuming bug gets patched), Begleit, 2A5/2A6, Radkampfwagen 90, Gepard 1A2, Wiesel 1A2 etc that all fill different roles, and the Tiger UHT has a very unique trait of being able to essentially F&F its ATGMs due to camera placement - something even the Ka 50/52s can’t do
other countries admittedly do not come this well stocked - Everyone knows the plight of Italy mains and countries like Sweden struggle to provide a semi viable CAS option compared to other contemporaries - but at the same time it’s hard to really fault that when it’s a nation based game and smaller nations spend far less on military spending compared to say, the US. The best solution for this in my opinion is combined trees - Sweden is already being supplemented by Finland and even Norway (Leopard 1ANO) and at this point I support a renaming to the Scandinavian or Nordic Tree since Sweden alone has proven unable to form a fully functional tech tree with all 3 (tank, plane and helicopter) branches.
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That’s the problem even if I want to play spaa
Instead of buffing them they get Nothing than nerfs since update locked on
And planes are just developing much faster than aa is the Next patch patch brings new air to ground missile for Russia with a range of 35km
What kind of aa should I spawn to defeat that ?
Flakpanzer 1 or Eurotruck for the guy in the mig29smt it’s the same shit
the eurotruck costs 6000 sl- 9512 sl to spawn more than a 2a6
not to mention the flakpanzer 1 is probably better against a low altitude targets because the vt maneuver delay also that thing costs only 123sl
I guess I`ll stop playing again if thats true.
NERFS done to aa
the accuracy of the radar for cannons have been made worse
on update lock on lining up the aim-point of the radar to the crosshair would mean instant death to the air target in question unless they deviated from the calculated intercept point by the travel time of the bullets
did even take velocity changes into account (which the ab thing don’t) so even continues turn or acceleration would mean death
removal of tracers for stuff like the lavad
timed fuzed rounds on the m247 or weak act has proxy instead of blowing up at the set time (it shoulnt mater how close or far they are from the target)
new "realistic "missile physics
radar ground clutter
pulse doppler nerf(most ground aa use pulse Doppler radars so they shoulnd be effected by chaff or alternatively have no problem whit attack notching or side flying targets)
inconsistent lock range expecelly against drones
constant nerfs to some vehicles in particular stormer and vt1 users
ever increasing repair costs for aa vehicles
locking to random stuff
missile blowing up wen hitting other objects giving things with rockets active protection system
oh i forgot the best part constant br rises the adats gained 0.7 br what did it gain to deserve that?
not to mention the euro-truck which is just ridicules or the Swedish missile thing
sidam 8.0->8.3
M247 8.0->9.0
the swedish missile thing 9.3->10.0
rolands 9.7->10.0
just the few i know from my head
not a nerf but missing functionality the puma air burst rounds are missing the air-burst part
only thing that got buffed are ir air to ground missiles(hard to notice has nato player i know)
they used to eat flares and miss pretty much everything pretty sure my g-lynx stingers even failed to bring down war-thunder bot pe8s
Realisticaly, its actual range is way less than 35km (Height+range) and LODs of the maps and overall spotting system blocks from using at these ranges (and maps are way smaller actually), so actually nothing will change and new missle wouldnt be much better than previous ones
Absolutely justified. Unlike other radar SPAAGs, that are now 8.3, m247 have proxy fuzes, what makes it not just better than Gepards and others, but ultimately op, specially against helis at this br
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wouldn’t be that bad if the first nerf of my list wasnt applied the gepard used to be a very good aa
Fun fact: the PGM-2000 already goes like 22km and has been in the game for a while now
Food for thought: Almost nobody uses it to lob long range bombs using the thermal pod + Mirage 2000 in Ground RB at top tier
People are willing to use the uttermost scummy tactics to do things in whatever game (think Ice Climber stun locking for Smash) but in live games you almost never see something like that happen, it’s always just “muh Ka-52” or “muh MiG-27K/14B/16 variant/4E”
In practice the range means little like how max AAM range on missiles for air means largely nothing - it’ requires ideal conditions and even w/o them you would need a lot of positioning to set it up and by that time you’d be out of time to even drop them frankly. AA pre missile rework could with only one vehicle also deny airspace for the entire enemy team - something I don’t think I need to explain why is a bit ridiculous. I’m not saying the SAM rework was well done - it’s clearly bugged between test drive performance and live server performance, and I also think it was far too overdone even based on test drive performance for a lot of missiles - but at the same time you get more tools the higher up you go and frankly downing air has never been easier in my opinion comparing it tier for tier with said tools (personal experience suggests so, at least)
*Response to comment below listing nerfs to SPAAs etc
The LAV getting its tracers removed wasn’t a nerf, it was a buff. The nerf was the penetration decrease on the belt, which ultimately doesn’t change the vehicle too much anyways. For radar aiming I dunno I just use the lead indicator as a ‘means of reference’ but in general if I aim at it and fire in bursts and not continuous fire to adjust my aim it usually results in a burning airframe for me. I have no idea what a ‘weak act’ is but the M247 proxy rounds work as proximity fuse instead of timed fuze so I’m not sure what the issue is here, if you want it to be timed fuze it would heavily gut the vehicle and as a result make it severely worse compared to its current performance. Ground radar also isn’t particularly chaffed. IRST can be distracted by flares, but I have never seen ground AA radar lock onto patches of chaff or get spoofed mid lock by it. Locks are just less consistent now but it’s not because of chaff as far as I’m aware. Drones lock fine except for on vehicles like the M163 with a very stunted lock range on SPAAs. They act as planes than helicopters, and as such are incredibly easy to lock onto (although locking a Stinger on them may take a while). Repair cost was never an issue I faced even without premium time and vehicles after the 2020 nerfs to ground economy. Missiles proxy fusing on other flying objects I think is a legitimate defense - the problem was the Ka 50s being able to guide all of them at you with no consequences, which has been partially remedied through the timer before launching another one for it to track properly. The ADATS went up for BR decompression’s sake, not because ‘it got anything’ - like dozens if not hundreds of others like it. Rolands went from 10.0 to 10.3 and the only Roland at 10.0 is the French one which did not move up when the others did. The SIDAM also went up because of decompressional changes - I don’t agree with them, but that can be said for a lot of vehicles that were unjustly moved up for admittedly the greater good and cherry picking the SIDAM doesn’t really seem that good an argument to me. Stingers have always been able to track targets fine - it’s the 10G limiter that was almost always the issue outside of helicopters not locking properly with them even at maddeningly close ranges.
I wasn’t trying to cherry pick
Just Pointed out those i know of
Weak sorry ment veak the Swedish twin Bofors aa
I don’t agree your argument about the French missile pretty sure the reason we don’t see them much is becouse there aren’t many french player’s at top tier ground
And just becouse the avg player can’t pull of a long range Strike or low level tos bombing
Doesn’t mean there aren’t players that can
And let’s pretend that 35km missile just got a range of 10km it’s a
Tv guided missile
So stuff like the adats are dead if they see each other at that range becouse the adats needs to guide the missile the entire time Meanwhile the mig29smt just can Jeet that Missile and pull away
And I have had situations in the pantsir were I just felt like j out becouse my missiles lacked the speed or maneuver ability to deal with fire and forget ordnance or stuff like f14b just Sitting at
Very high altitude far away so they can just avoid the slow non maneuverable missile
The stat card my tell you all the way to 50g problem is at certain ranges it can go all the way down to 10-14g can’t find the datamine sheet anymore
The problem is Gaijin creates this problem - they add super strong stuff to the RU line and keep giving them new toys every update - so of course people are going to keep playing it.
If they would add stuff to other nations to match and fill out everything (including the spaa gaps) we would see maybe players play other nations and see more mixed battles.
Indeed I really need to Invest more in the Russian tree and stop wasting my time with other Nations like french Italy or china
On the air trees I don’t know what to think really america gets all the good planes (mostly a or prototypes or just early versions) f104 F4 a4 f86
Meanwhile the other nation usually get the more advanced Versions of said vehicles (if they have been exported)
Russia on the other hand gets both
New Shiny planes and oddly don’t even know what a or Early is they just get m Versions or later
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How much fun a nation is, is subjective.
Strv 122 is the king of ground, just isn’t played.
Su-25 is the worst CAS at top BR.
Ka-50 is the worst helicopter for 11.7 battles as every 11.7 is superior to it.
T-80s spall and ammo rack with ease.
BVMs are everywhere cause it’s the only option they have. When you only have 1 viable MBT for 11.7 it’s what you use.
The best premium helicopter is Rooivalk. Best premium jet is A-6E TRAM, better than all Su-25s. If A-6E was Soviet it’d be 10.7 instantly.
@barial
Your T-34 experience is people not shooting you in a skilled manner.
Win rate is mostly team skill overpowering the other team, especially in ground which is far more balanced than air ever can be.
@davey_902
Tank damage models are universal. Fuel tanks eat rounds on all tanks.
Su-25s & A-10s were designed to take light manpad damage.
@MastuhWaffles
That “new stuff” comes with superior stuff for opposing countries.
For the missile argument no I would have to disagree. First that assumes you can even find the target - the 29SMT does not have a pod and trying to find people without one at 10km is at best an inconvenience and at worst essentially impossible because of tank derendering, terrain clutter and just the sheer distance meaning even the scope on the bombsight usually won’t be good enough to properly identify a vehicle. If you see someone chucking something at you you can also as an anti air drop smoke and then drive off a bit - easily shown against drone Mavericks as if you think one is flying your way you can drop smoke, drive in it, reverse out and move away for them to just miss you entirely. Laser guided missiles and bombs get spoofed and TV also similarly gets spoofed since it isn’t ESS, meaning yes, counterplay does exist on your end albeit not that straightforward w/o LWS. While the 29SMT could just chuck one and move on the realistic lock range would be within the ADATS or any other anti-air’s realistic engagement bubble and at those ranges even if you traded the anti-air wins on a spawn point cost advantage (~400 at worst after 2 tank spawns vs at least 500+ for most CAS as most people don’t run lights at top tier over MBTs).
The Pantsir’s missiles are by no means slow so I’m not sure what part of the missile makes you think that, but if you mean at the outer edges after the motor burns out that’s understandable I suppose. I know it’s not full 50G (VT1s would still be good if statcards were 100% to be trusted) but a 14B making an attack run outside of the most meticulous of players using their skills to the max would mean they’d again, fly into engagement ranges and have to contend with SAMs of varying degrees of effectiveness.