Independent South African Tech Tree & Jordanian Sub-Tree

Skimmed through it and didn’t find anything I didn’t already know about the Class 2 (that it was the Rooikat prototype). What I’m asking is how it would differ in-game, to justify a 0.3 BR lower (according to the main post), or even being added in general. I can’t find any info on whether it had or didn’t have a laser rangefinder, which imo would be the key feature that would change its BR.

According to the SA Armour Museum it had “Selectable Skid Turn; Both Directions at 10 km/h” and a “Turret Mounted 60mm Mortar”, which might even make it (slightly) better than the production Rooikat.

2 Likes

A whole BR difference, it would also be slower but too many things that one can see a noticeable gameplay difference. Someone who tested the Class 2(B) and production Rooikat could probably tell you the main difference but is internal systems, like accuracy of sights to gun, definitely the stabilizer failer speeds etc.

Honestly not a huge amount.

In terms of firepower and armour they are essentially the same, with slightly different chassis, but the 2B will have worse mobility, with only 6 forward gears and 1 reverse, with the Rooikat having 12(?) forward and 4 reverse.

For game balance, my thought process behind the placement was that the difference will come from the soft stats, like rotation & elevation speed, optics, reload, potentially only optical rangefinder vs laser rangerfinder etc etc.

But they could very easily both be at 8.7. The BRs I’ve placed vehicles at definitely only approximate and shouldn’t be considered final.

Even if it was 8.7 and had similar performance to the Rooikat, I don’t think that’s a reason to not add it. It’s a unique domestic vehicle with good performance that fits the overall playstyle of the nation - hit fast and hard. Its not any different to the USSR having several T-54s at 8.0, or GB having 2 Chieftains at 8.7.

2 Likes

Thats what Rooikat has, that + selectable low/high

1 Like

Thanks!

Fair, I certainly won’t complain about more Rooikats :)

Have you thought about adding one of the 4 prototypes (pre-production?) each named after the Four Musketeers as a premium? I know the CVED is already there but the named ones fit Gaijin’s style of premiums a little more.

F6AFsSIXkAEOWlu

4 Likes

Interesting, thanks!

Do you know how the game derives 4 reverse gears from a single gear with selectable high/low?

1 Like

No. I don’t. High low would mean that it is 12/2, so at least forward are fine. Maybe ratios were doing some magic, and more gears were needed to make it work in game.

1 Like

All good, I have a suggestion pending for the Class 2B, but it really doesn’t contain any extra info that I didn’t cover in my Class 2 (77mm) suggestion.

Yeah, I can put one of those in as a premium, they are interesting vehicles with important history :)

1 Like

Looking back as well this is actually a very important photo, this isn’t the Rooikat hull, its the Class 2C hull, the front-engined Class 2 prototype, and this is the only variant I’m aware of where it has a turret.

With only the 20mm it’s kind of just obsolete when compared to the Eland 20, but if it got the ATGM mounting (as it’s the same turret as the Ratel 20), then it would be interesting as an early wheeled IFV around 8.0.

4 Likes

Tau 4x4:
IMG_4941

Ratel SLEP:
IMG_4940

G6-52:
IMG_4943

4 Likes

Never thought they got that far in the project

I was considering writing a suggestion but there’s basically 0 information about it that I can find - just that it was showcased at AAD 2024 and it’s basically a smaller Ratel.

As far as I know it uses the same turret as old Ratels so no upgraded electronics or anything like the SLEP.

I actually misidentified it, well… sort of. I was thinking of the A 300/400 which was a bit like a Ratel with the second wheel placed behind the first one and the side doors in front of the rear wheels, it also would have been amphibious

Level 1 did not have 120mm cannon, that would be AB9B1 Level 2. AB9B1 Level 1 was more focused on fire-control system and electro-optical improvements, while Level 2 came with 120mm cannon. Also I’m not sure if calling it as Phoenix Level 1 is correct as Phoenix name came after AB9B1 Level 3 though I might be mistaken. I would suggest four different vehicles as: AB9B1 Level 1, AB9B1 Level 2, AB9B1 Level 3 and M60A3 Phoenix.

AB9B1 Level 1

AB9B1 Level 2

AB9B1 Level 3

M60A3 Phoenix

According to Jane’s AB9B1 Level 1 did not receive 120mm cannon, I would like to another source claiming otherwise which you might’ve used.

Again using Jane’s as source, AB9B1 Level 2 did not have any armor upgrades, only 120mm cannon on top of improvements of Level 1. AB9B1 Level 3 seems to received composite armor elements while Phoenix have RUAG ERA instead of composite. So possibly there would be four different vehicles as; AB9B1 Level 1, AB9B1 Level 2, AB9B1 Level 3, M60 Phoenix
Sources

Jane’s Armour and Artillery 2005 - 2006

Jane’s Armour and Artillery 2011 - 2012

3 Likes

The M60 upgrade program is generally an absolute mess.

The Phoenix Level 1 is generally acknowledged to not include the 120mm upgrade, you are correct.

The composite upgrade is known as the Level 3, but keep in mind these are magazine sources:

image
image

I cannot for the life of me find the source where I saw the ERA upgrade package referred to as the Level 2, but I promise it didn’t come to me in a dream.

However, I’m preparing another update to the tree, including another Jordanian m60 upgrade package:

And with this I’ll probably be leaving behind the Level 1/2/3 designations as, like you have pointed out, they are inconsistent and most likely inaccurate.

Currently I’m planning on changing them to:

M60 Phoenix (120)

M60 Phoenix (ERA)

M60 Phoenix (2003) - (shown at IDEX 2003)

M60 Phoenix (2006) - (shown at SOFEX 2006)

4 Likes

Another update for the tree! A little of everything this time, 11 new vehicles with a lot of unique stuff. Also a good bit of general improvement to the tree, including a some better pictures for the lower tier vehicles, showing them in use instead of as museum pieces, renaming of a few vehicles, and shuffling round a few ranks and BRs.

Mediums/MBTs

M4A4, Jordan ( Rank III, Jordanian Line)

I hate to start this of with a bit of copy-paste, but it turns out Jordan very reclusively operated the M4A4 in small numbers, which is perfect for providing a solid bit of armour to the earlier lineups in the tree.

M60 Phoenix 2006 (Rank VI, Event Vehicle)

A later variant of the M60 Phoenix, with a fully re-designed composite turret, exhibited by KADDB at SOFEX 2006.

M60 Phoenix LEDS(Rank VII, Jordanian Line)

M60 Phoenix equipped with the Swedish Land Electronic Defence System (LEDS), an Active Protection System (APS), with both soft-kill and hard-kill capabilities. Also gets a .50cal.

M60 Phoenix LEDS

Al-Hussein (Eager Lion) (Rank VII, Premium)

A Jordanian Al-Hussein (Challenger 1) MBT, decorated as a vehicle taking part in the Eager Lion exercises. Essentially this trees equivalent to the Challenger DS, M1 KVT, or Type 90 Fuji.

Al-Hussein Eager Lion

Armoured Cars

Rooikat (Pre-Series) (Rank VI, Premium)

A vehicle from the pre-series batch of the Rooikat production run, each named for one of the Musketeers. Nothing super unique but a nod to the history of the vehicle.

Rooikat 76 D'Artagnan

Tank Destroyers/IFVs

CMP 17pdr (Rank III, Jordanian Line)

Jordanian 1950s armoured car derived from the WW2 Canadian Military Pattern (CMP) truck, with a rear-mounted 17pdr taken from a field mount. Essentially a wheeled Archer, its a very unique early Jordanian vehicles that well represents the level of improvisation that was necessary in the country at the time. Also seems like it would be buckets of fun to play.

CMP 17pdr

DAF M102 105mm (Rank III, Jordanian Line)

Jordanian self-propelled artillery piece consisting of an M102 howitzer on a 4x4 DAF truck chassis, capable of firing HE and very low velocity (~500m/s) 105mm HEAT. No fancy nonsense like a stabiliser or laser rangefinder.

DAF M102 105mm

Class 2C (Rank V, TD/IFK Line)

A prototype constructed during the Rooikat demonstrator phase featuring a front-engine, rear troop compartment, and the turret from a Ratel 20.

Class 2C 20mm SA

SPAA

Ratel BAU-23-2 (Rank IV, SPAA Line)

Jordanian modified Ratel with the turret of a Ukrainian BTR-84. Armed with twin 23mm 2A72 autocannons in an enclosed turret with large 200 round magazines. I’m a full-time Ratel hater but I must admit this thing is pretty cool.

Ratel BAU-23-2

Cougar VADS (Rank IV, SPAA Line)

Jordanian Cougar Mine Resistant Armoured Patrol (MRAP) vehicle armed with the turret from a M163 SPAA, without the radar. Would be an excellent gunslinging-only SPAA, not like the radar does much for the M163 anyways.

Cougar VADS

Dzhighit (Rank VI, SPAA Line)

Jordanian twin IGLA-S launcher mounted on the back of, of course, a toyota pick up. Makes for a simple and bare-bones early missile-only SPAA. I’ve got no idea how to say the name.

Dzhighit

Coming very very soon (maybe) (please)

Umkhonto Ground Based Launcher

With the most recent leaks indicating that top-tier multi-vehicle SAMs are on their way, the time may soon come to add South Africa’s most modern SPAA, the Umkhonto Ground Based Launcher (GBL), to the tree.

Umkhonto GBL

3 Likes

+1 as a foldered nation (I’m assuming you’ve seen the foldered nations suggestion)

South Africa has quite a bit of stuff left to add, but in gajin fashion, they implemented this nation on a way that hurts both South Africa and UK in terms of vehicle rep. Hopefully if foldered nations do get implemented, South Africa will be the first (or one of the first) as it would free up space for more domestic UK vehicles while also giving a separate space for extra South African stuff.

Exist version probably with optical tracking
Cougar_20mm_Vulcan_Gun_KADDB_SOFEX_2016_Special_Operations_Forces_Exhibition_Amman_Jordan_640_002
Cougar_20mm_Vulcan_Gun_KADDB_SOFEX_2016_Special_Operations_Forces_Exhibition_Amman_Jordan_640_001

3 Likes

Well as far as I know ERA came way down in AB9B1 Program, some time between Level 3 and Phoenix.

I’m not the expert here but I would suggest you to you use AB9B1 designation for first three M60 and Phoenix for later models just to signify its uniqueness.

This one is much more viable in my opinion

Sebbo_the_Plebbo finds this.
So probably no optical tracking

2 Likes