If you could, how would you re-balance CAS in Ground Battles?

[O_HOgameplay]

@Morvran

Currently. SPAA is probably too weak. So:

• Increase SPAA performance

Sure. Tho it will still be outclassed by any CAS, even if you give a literal aimbot to SPAA.

@Morvran

Lower the BR of most SPAA

Not a bad idea. Thos there are SPAA that are just better as tank killers. I don’t think lowering the BR of a Falcon, ZSU-57-2, or the finnish Leo 2 AA would be a good idea.
Also, you can’t take away their AT rounds, because then they would be useless against tanks (khm SIDAM-25).

@Morvran

Increase the number of SPAA to fill in gaps

Not a bad idea again, but there are nations, that have not enough SPAA that could be added to fill gaps. Japan for example.

@Morvran

Add more modern/capable SPAA

Sure, tho there is the same issue as in the first point.
The only ones that could be really effective are systems, like a Patriot, or S-300, however they are multi platform, and would make CAS unplayable. I would happily accept that, but there is no way Gaijin will ever make a similar system, considering that premium CAS sales would just stop then. And also CAS players would start crying.

@Morvran

Additional improvements like

• Increase SPAA rewards
• Additonal SPAA value (like scouting, including maybe with a drone) would help early game too

I fully agree.

@Morvran

There is also CAP. It is the most effective counter to any CAS but it currently costs way too much to spawn in a fighter to defeat other CAS aircraft.

The issue is that you also have to grind a second tech tree for that. What if you are a bad pilot, or planes are not your interests?
So players would still forced to grind planes to be effective in GROUND mode.
Do Air players have to grind tanks to be effective in AIR mode?

@Morvran

So making fighters cheaper to spawn would help to.

Most fighters still can kill tanks even with guns. A .50 cal can easily kill things, like Tigers and Panthers.

Even if you just give only pure HE belts to those fighters (i don’t know how you would do it with a .50 cal, and other small calibre guns tho), they can still kill open tops, or vehicles with an external ATGM/rocket launcher, or just track them.

Or, if you mean giving those fighters only AAMs, then at low tiers, you could not use a fighter to counter planes, because there is no AAMs that you can use.

@Morvran

All CAS to spawn on AFs (but there should be 2 AFs to choose between) (heavy bombers may need to keep air spawn, but they could spawn further away or at a lower altitude instead)

Good idea, but let’s just make every plane take off from an airfield.

@Morvran

• Move Heli spawns further away, (beyond 6-8kms) (maybe even add heli spawns onto AFs, this would allow for AF AA to be re-activated)
• Increase SP cost of specific weapons (I.e the large bombs on Lancaster and Pe-8) by an appropriate amount
• Increase SP costs for the amount of A2G weapons carried (2x Hellfire would cost a lot less than 16 for example)
• Dynamic SP costs of A2G weapons on a case by case basis and from BR to BR (a 1k unguided bomb on a BR3 fighter is very strong, but a 1k unguided bomb on a top tier sub-sonic really isnt that strong)
• Increase Heli SP cost to prevent first spawn
• Remove strike drones (or change them to be recon only)
• reasonable changes (increases and decreases) to the base cost of aircraft, but on a case by case basis
• Add a small SP cost for targetting pods (increasing depending on what gen thermal it has 0-3)
• Exponential spawn costs for aircraft over the current ground max BR (so current 12 and 12.3 aircraft for example would have an SP cost multiplier as the max BR of ground is only 11.7)

Agreed.

@Morvran

Decrease the SP cost of lower value A2G weapons as they become less effective.
(unguided weapons like bombs and rockets at low to medium tier are hightly effective, but at top tier, unguided weapons have more limited value, especially as you are more exposed to SPAA. Decreasing their SP Cost slightly might encourage them to be used over the more effective precision weapons at top tier)

How would it be less effective?

@Morvran

so players in planes might be encouraged to support teammates rather than use A2G weapons

Isn’t it the biggest irony, that CAS is Close Air Support, yet it is the most destructive thing to tanks.

Now, how to make it more belenced (yet it would still be unbalanced):
1, Only allow CAS to spawn if one team lost at lest 50% of their tickets.
If the ticket difference between the 2 teams is 0-20%, then both theam should be able to spawn 2-3 CAS at the same time.
If the difference if 20-50%, then the losing team should be able to spawn 3, while the winning 1 CAS.
If it is bigger than 50%, then only the losing team should be able to spawn 3 CAS.

2, remove ticket loss if a tank is killed by CAS.
Additionally, make 500 ticket loss if a CAS is shot down, and 1000 tickets if is crashes.

3, if a tank is capping a base, and it gets killed by CAS, and there is no teammate, nor an enemy, then the base should continue to be capped by that destroyed player.

4, make a lead indicator for every tank, like in Arcade, as well as make an indicator over them, like in Arcade.

5, give a CAS ban for teamkilling in CAS. So if you teamkill with CAS, you will not be able to spawn with CAS for x amounts of matches. The duration could be calculated, like this:
CAS ban duration = 100+(number of teamkills)^3 matches.

And as well, give a tank only mode, so people who want to use skill can have their own mode, and those, who don’t have skill can be happy too.

[TPS_Hydra]

Remove aircraft and helicopters from Ground RB and make a separate game mode for it. It’s not fun getting a triple kill in your M1A2 SEP just to get bombed by a revenge killer (they are very skilful).

It’s like allowing players to use AA systems in Air Realistic, would it be enjoyable to die to a S-400 for realism? No

[Uncle_J_Wick]

@MotorolaCRO

I mean, we already have plethora of reasons why people will leave games, so adding another one is not ideal.

Agreed - but imho the main difference is who is flying 1st spawn planes.

You might agree that dedicated pilots are more likely to contribute and to perform much better in an aircraft than a dedicated tanker who is forced to fly in order to protect his own tanks - you have your answer.

The whole topic boils down to the very low attractiveness of Ground RB for pilots not interested in tanks - so from a holistic perspective a dedicated tanker won’t choose a non-CAS plane as a 1st spawn as the game is over for him if he is not performing, especially if there is a high risk that he meets a rather good pilot.

An experienced Air RB pilot is used to take calculated risks as he comes from a “one match - one life” game mode…

To reduce your pov arguing the with multi-spawn approach or referring to a dysfunctional MM looks comprehensible, but your own examples with ODLs or single tank line-ups demonstrate that Ground RB is already severely affected by other factors - and if CAS is the reason for people to leave: What harm can a few slots for dedicated pilots produce? If they are good, the tankers might consider a respawn, if the got killed the ODL guy will leave anyway…

To spend 20% of your teamsize (2-4 team slots) for 1st spawn aircraft for players which identify themselves as pilots looks way more promising to get implemented than to hope for a TO mode.

Basically Ground RB is suffering like Air RB - too many people in the lobbies which leave the game early (dead at first contact) creating extremely large number disparities very early, so that passionate tankers and pilots play in the majority of matches either 8 vs 2 or 2 vs 8 after a few minutes - skill becomes less important in both cases as numbers decide…

[Morvran]

@O_HOgameplay

@Morvran

Decrease the SP cost of lower value A2G weapons as they become less effective.
(unguided weapons like bombs and rockets at low to medium tier are hightly effective, but at top tier, unguided weapons have more limited value, especially as you are more exposed to SPAA. Decreasing their SP Cost slightly might encourage them to be used over the more effective precision weapons at top tier)

How would it be less effective?

Take the Tornado Gr1:

Dropping up to 12 1k unguided bombs at mach 1 at ultra low alt on a moving target is far harder and less effective than sitting than sitting at 20k ft dropping a GBU or PGM and has dramtically greater risk as you are well within range of SPAA, Helis, etc. Currently the difference in SP cost in negliable and there just isnt really much point to running an unguided loadout. But if there was an insentive, like it being a lot lot cheaper (or at least with a partial load) maybe the increased risk and reduced effectiveness would be “worth it”

@O_HOgameplay

Isn’t it the biggest irony, that CAS is Close Air Support, yet it is the most destructive thing to tanks.

Counter Argument to that is that you are “supporting” your team by taking out enemy forces. Protecting your team. I’ll typically prioritise those in sniping spots, flanking my teams spawn or those trying to cap a point (and thus help my team)

[BoveyBadBoy69]

I agree,make the separate mode and let the people decide
Its like the referendum for the UK to leave the EU,nobody expected the result that came,half the pro EU people were so sure it was a done deal they didn’t bother to vote.Try the CAS free version and lets see what it tells us about the game and the people who play it.Only way we will truly know.

[O_HOgameplay]

@Morvran

Counter Argument to that is that you are “supporting” your team by taking out enemy forces. Protecting your team. I’ll typically prioritise those in sniping spots, flanking my teams spawn or those trying to cap a point (and thus help my team)

No. You are annihilating a team. It is not supporting.

[Morvran]

That is exactly what Close air support is IRL…

Typhoons didnt drop 500lb paveways filled with chocolates and encouraging messages during Op Shader

[ARK_BOI]

Jet able to spawn at the match
Me “Oh well time to air spawn camping those Russian jets”

[Uncle_J_Wick]

@O_HOgameplay

Most fighters still can kill tanks even with guns. A .50 cal can easily kill things, like Tigers and Panthers.

And this is nonsense. Pure fictional BS. A vid which debunked it:

P-47 vs Tiger Tank: Can Machine Guns Penetrate Armor?

So the fact that gaijin allows this nonsense should give you an indicator that this is fully intended…

[Morvran]

When he said that I thought he was just being Hyperbolic. But they actually can?

[MotorolaCRO]

@Uncle_J_Wick

You might agree that dedicated pilots are more likely to contribute and to perform much better in an aircraft than a dedicated tanker who is forced to fly in order to protect his own tanks - you have your answer.

You’re right, dedicated pilots should perform that job much better on average, I’m not arguing about that one.

@Uncle_J_Wick

To reduce your pov arguing the with multi-spawn approach or referring to a dysfunctional MM looks comprehensible, but your own examples with ODLs or single tank line-ups demonstrate that Ground RB is already severely affected by other factors - and if CAS is the reason for people to leave: What harm can a few slots for dedicated pilots produce?

I think our current system is pretty flawed to say the least. So many variables can and will decide the match before it even started, which is something that we need to fix before implementing new features, if you know what I mean. It’s gotten to the point that majority of our modes are in a dire need of a complete overhaul, especially higher up you go.

To answer your question, I don’t think it would be bad to have a few dedicated pilot slots, but you can have situations where, for example, 10 people want to be dedicated pilots in that match, but there’re only a few slots available. Some of them might take it on chin and move on while playing tanks, but some will definitely leave and try their luck in the next match. This isn’t good for obvious reasons.

This could be mitigated by implementing role-checkboxes before queueing for a match, where people would be able to choose what role(s) they will be playing, preventing the situation above from happening.

[O_HOgameplay]

It uses Gaijin’s calculator.

And if it did or not irl does not matter.

There are also many rounds that perform differently than irl, yet you don’t cry about those.

[O_HOgameplay]

1st grade maths qustion:
Which one is greater? 30 or 25?

[Uncle_J_Wick]

@O_HOgameplay

yet you don’t cry about those.

I am not crying - i just showed an example which kind of BS i see daily in the kill feed. Idc if gaijin thinks their calculator is right or wrong, the results are fantasy…

[O_HOgameplay]

I know.
Tho i think it is just easier for them to use, especially for some kind of prototype ammo without a lot of documentation.

Also (this is just a theory from my side) i think it also reduces the chances of some idiot leaking classified ammo documents, like that chinese guy did.

[LoL-LoL]

First balance cas planes in AIR RB where they are totally uselsss now

[SinisterIsRandom]

Rebalanced?. On the left, you have the highly intelligent geniuses who want it removed. On the right you have the ones who think they should be more expensive and only allowed to be used up to 6 times or for a limited amount of time.

In the middle, you have us who keep telling both to be quiet and complain to gaijin to fix the spawn point system, not the vehicle spawn points. As of right now its painful but we do our job.

[ULQ_LOVER]

@SinisterIsRandom

who want it removed.

You mean people that want another gamemode without planes to be added or an option like with night Battles that allows to have a game without planes?

[GrumpyWumpy]

Another lover of staying next to stone was bombed
Its time to create another thread about players that cost 650-900 SP are need to suffer

[ULQ_LOVER]

More like around 600 that gives You 2x 1000 lbs bombs and 4x HVAR rockets