Just play Air at this point… I swear CAS players will do anything to no play Air
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Playing smart shouldn’t be punished, the use of tactics isn’t a justification for CAS
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FWIW I don’t play CAS. I genuinely think this could be more engaging for both ground and air players
It’s not a punish? Also if you’re thinking tactically you’re not sitting in the same position when you know it’s at play. Tactics is about more than knowing where to go on a map, you also need to anticipate the response someone is going to have to your position and evaluate if staying is really a good idea. Killing 4 or 5 people while staying in one area is pretty likely for people to see you as a priority target so staying in that spot is probably not a great plan.
If anything if you’re truly “playing smart” you’re a harder target for CAS to hit and make it more likely to go for them to go to someone else who’s easier
It’s not, it’s very clear that people don’t enjoy planes in their tank mode
Yes it is a punishment, if someone has a vantage position because he knows the game and is actively defending it and changing is location getting killed by CAS is a punishment because he’s playing smart. I never said you should blindly charge at him… you have to outsmart him… and if he’s staying still in one spot to which you cannot possibly manoeuvre against there’s alredy a solution… Artillery. CAS has no place in ground battles… and, on top of this, the other arguments you made don’t justify CAS… it’s the opposite
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People don’t like the state of CAS. It operates virtually unopposed due to its counter not being well incetivized to play. What I’m proposing is giving people more of a reason to be in SPAA, or even better to run A2A loadouts on planes which are a direct counter to the CAS strategy that is incredibly hard to defend against. This way the component still exists but in a much less oppressive state. If you just look at as “plane bad” then yeah, you’re gonna see it that way. Analyze what’s going on.
By this logic getting flanked is a punishment too, or getting surprised by someone you couldn’t see coming. You’re never truly safe, in a well balanced PvP game there is no amount of “playing smart” that won’t eventually get thwarted in the end. You’re playing the wrong kind of game for this.
And if there’s multiple people covering the angles? This game doesn’t exist in a vacuum of 1v1s, sometimes there is genuinely no viable angle to attack from for a variety of reasons. Either your vehicle simply isn’t suited to the maneuver you would need to pull off, the angles are covered, there’s no time, etc. This is why counter systems like this exist, to keep one strategy from becoming overly oppressive. Removing CAS does not magically balance the game, it tilts it heavy in defense’s favor.
Also, you’re having a laugh with artillery. It’s not totally ineffective but it’s not a magic solution either. Many vehicles can easily shrug off all but direct hits from artillery and it’s purely RNG if you’re going to get one of those.
This is what CAS serves as, a team oriented strategy to bust a position reliably, just the same as a strong position will bust an offensive reliably. It’s classic PvP game design of rock/paper/scissors. The issue lies in the fact that the counter for CAS is not encouraged to use.
Look at basically any tank focused game and you will see the same methodology in play. For the shiggles let’s take WoT as an example. Planes don’t exist but artillery fills the role. Accurate long range fire that punishes static positions and can’t be directly countered except by other artillery. Does that sound familiar?
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People have issue with it because in order to deal it You have to die without being able to do anything about it in first place.
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What you quoted addresses that issue actually, but I’ll expand upon what I mean.
The issue with SPAA is three fold; it has a high skill floor (for most vehicles) to achieve plane kills, the plane kills you do achieve don’t give you much which is absurd considering the impact, and if there are no planes in the sky your impact is gone. It’s the perfect storm of a role that is only played reactively, so let’s try to knock out these issues one by one.
High skill floor there really isn’t much that can be done about. Shooting a plane moving the 3D space at speed is just always going to be harder than shooting a tank moving (effectively) in 2D space and much slower. However what can be done is better rewarding achieving these kills since this does rely on you being smart with how you play as well.
Rewards are basically nothing especially compared to game impact. CAS planes usually have about double to triple the SP cost of any tank to deploy, and they are vehicles that should be ideally preemptively countered as they hit hard and fast. Knocking one down before it has the chance to kill friendlies or even driving it off should be adequately rewarded in line with the value of achieving the kill. Buff the rewards for shooting down a plane to at minimum being equal to knocking out an enemy tank. Simple psychology at play, more people will actually want to deal with knocking down planes giving them more experience doing so, making it easier to do so, and so on. This also makes SPAA easier to grind making them more effective as well.
The game impact risk is the real bear here however, a knee jerk reaction would be to buff SPAA in ways that make them more effective at killing tanks, but this creates a lot of annoying issues on its own (See: XM246, Gepard, etc) and also distracts from SPAA’s actual role. This is where incentives aimed at people taking out proper A2A loadouts in planes comes into play. Now you have another element of your team that needs cover, trying to cover your CAS against supremacy fighters. This is also where I had the thought of having things like bases nearby the ground battle for units like bombers to attempt to target, you can now go for targeting bombers attempting to assault your bases.
Like in air modes and anyone who wants to do that can just play air modes.
Maybe giving tankers an option to fight just tanks after so many years of nerfs/buffs/changes that didn’t solve anything is what should happen.
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As addressed to another person’s comment
Not to mention you’re doing to SPAA what happened to the bomber, making it entirely irrelevant
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Still relevant in already existing combined mode.
But I guess we all know that if there was mode just for tanks, no one would go for combined mode.
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No, people don’t like CAS. But they know that Gaijin won’t remove it, as it rightfully should be, so they ask for better counters. As of now SPAAs aren’t enough and not everyone wants to play CAP. You have too take a closer look if anything…
No it’s not, because you get Flanked by a ground unit. You can defend against those and if you’re holding a position you should expect to get flanked. Your argument makes no sense
This doesn’t justify CAS in any way shape or form… tanks are defensive machines by nature… that hiw their use irl aren’t they? Since how thing is used irl is important to you I don’t see why tanks should have a different standard. Artillery, which is used exactly fir this btw, isn’t enough? Buff artillery then. No need fo CAS other then to cover a skill issue.
Maybe next time get some good arguments? But then, there aren’t any for CAS
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You’re also splitting the ground battle player base, driving up queue times which is an issue Gaijin likes to avoid like the plague as it also irritates the hell out of the players without any meaningful monetary gain.
Maybe for the first couple of weeks until people realize it’s a boring campfest that pretty much entirely composes of who can get the best spots first wins automatically
Straight up lying and you know it
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Oh no, anyway.
I guess people will enjoy gamemode where they fight only things they can actually do something, like what tank vs tank gameplay is.
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I’ve literally been saying this the entire time. Why is it so hard of a pill to swallow that if Gaijin is clearly not going to remove it, maybe we should focus on ways of countering it instead? Begging for CAS to be removed is a nonstarter. It’s not going to happen, there’s too much money to be made, the game is almost entirely marketed around it being a combined arms oriented game, it’s never going to happen.
Welcome to a hyperbolic statement. It was meant to point out the ridiculousness of complaining about getting countered. That’s the nature of PvP games, no matter what you do in a well made PvP game, there will be a counter.
Again, that was an example. I’m not enforcing any kind of standard, I’m looking at the reality of the game. Tanks are defensive machines by nature, some more than others depending on the doctrine they were designed around. You know what biggest threat to a tank is IRL? A plane or a foot soldier sneaking up to it, and well drones with the latest tech. You’re right if we want to hold one vehicle type to this standard, we need to hold them all to this standard, but that’s unproductive in this scope since that’s not really how Warthunder operates. This is why my arguments rely more on PvP game design than how this operates IRL.
IMO Artillery is fine as is. This gives in immediate response for dealing with a situation where you’re pinned down. The problem is artillery has 0 counter in this regard. Buffing it turns this into an “I win” button right off the cuff. I thought we wanted to avoid that? This is exactly why I say deal with the issue by buffing the counters for CAS. This directly addresses the issue of CAS feeling like it takes no skill to use.
Ad hominem.
How do you lie about a hypothetical?
That’s not an “oh no” that’s a legitimate issue in the eyes of Gaijin, who you want to convince to add this mode. Waving it off doesn’t make it not exist
Yes because as we know there’s no imbalances at all in the tank v tank matchup.
If queue time was their priority they wouldn’t add new gamemodes (guess what they do).
Examples?
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Because you cannot, simple as that… CAS cannot be balanced if not by being removed or so extremely hard to obtain that it’s effectively removed
Not really, artillery isn’t meant to kill but force movement… and it’s very telegraphed where it’s going to hit… then you wanted a solution for “camping” and i gave you one who not only resolves your issue but also everyone else’s and, on top of that, gives more usefulness to Medium Tanks, if you remove it from light tanks that is
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The only one that comes to mind that is actually a full new mode is Nuclear Thunder, but this also serves the purpose of revitalizing air gameplay in Warthunder because air matches have been stale for a long time. Anything new for ground usually gets thrown into the same overarching mode. The current assault mode is only separate because it’s in testing.
Like off the top of my head the BMPT and T-58 come to mind. Issues with BR compression can often cause people to end up in matchups that are not impossible to win but can be difficult to achieve victory against. There’s a litany of balancing issues that exist even if you narrow the scope down to just ground vehicles
You’ve never directly addressed why these buffs would fail. You’ve just said “nuh uh CAS is a skill issue” pretty much this entire time. Address my proposal directly. What is wrong with buffing rewards for shooting down planes? What is wrong with providing more incentives for running A2A loadouts? Don’t just say “There’s other ways to do it so just nuke CAS pls” because that’s not addressing the argument it’s dodging it.
The problem is in team based games if you give too much power in the hands of a single character with no cost it will end up invalidating the “smart thinking” you want to encourage. What’s the point of occupying a position if someone’s just gonna press the “nope” button on it? The issue is CAS can be countered, and it does have a cost to use. Like I said the cost to spawn CAS in is roughly double or triple that of a tank, and you have to die first. So if you want to use it, you have to lose the tank you’re in, forfeit the position you have, and potentially lose 2 spawns if you get shot down without achieving a kill. That’s why I believe buffing CAS and CAP is the way to go, it makes the investment more punishing if it doesn’t work out commensurate with the game impact of using it