IAI Kfir Countermeasure Improvements

[ElGringo1121]

In this thread, I will be posting my research on several aspects of the Kfir C.7, as well as the C.1 and C.2. It is unfortunate that the most unique aircraft in the Israeli air tech tree is represented so indifferently, and I’ve come here to correct that.

Next, we move on to the Countermeasures segment.

There are plenty of images of Israeli and export Kfirs using additional countermeasure “buckets” specifically on the centerline fuel tank pylon.

These were 2, 30 round AN/ALE-40 dispensers per side for a total of 120 additional countermeasures on top of the 36 it already carried internally.

Here are more images on other Kfirs including C.7, Ecuadorian C.2, and C.1 (Canard).

C.7

C.2

C.1

As for when these were introduced, it must have been quite early as the C.1 pictured is a pre C.1 Canard. Most if not all of which were upgraded to C.2 by 1978.

That concludes the Countermeasure segment.

Sources

“Mirage III/5/50 Variant Briefing”, by Paul Jackson, WORLD AIR POWER JOURNAL, volumes 14, 15, and 16

https://www.airvectors.net/avmir3_2.html

Terry Gander, Christopher Chant, Bob Munro, Collins/Jane’s Combat Aircraft. Harper Resource, 1995.

Breffort, Dominique; Jouineau, Andre (2004). The Mirage III, 5, 50 and derivatives from 1955 to 2000. Planes and Pilots 6. Histoire et Collections, Paris.

Gunston, B., & Spick, M. (n.d.). Modern Air Combat: The Aircraft, Tactics and Weapons Employed in Aerial Warfare Today. Crescent.

https://www.scribd.com/document/346753464/IAI-Kfir-Monografie-Lotnicze-No-27

IAI Kfir: in IAF service

Flight International Magazine April 1979 Edition

Flight International Magazine August 1983 Edition

THE COMPLETE BOOK OF FIGHTERS, by William Green and Gordon Swanborough, Smithmark Books, 1994

THE ENCYCLOPEDIA OF WORLD MILITARY AIRCRAFT, edited by David Donald & Jon Lake, Barnes & Noble, 2000

If I find more sources, I will add them.

If there’s anything I can improve I would appreciate the feedback.

[Necronomica]

Use this site for reports on historical issues: Gaijin.net // Issues

[ElGringo1121]

When I try to post this there, it gives me this error message.

Failed to save issue data: Bad request. [EID: 47f82e33f99fc305a2542a38c777e539]

[BasherBenDawg8]

Wish I had known about this sooner, great find!

Worth mentioning since it doesn’t seem to have been said in this thread already: those dispensers are the AN/ALE-40 chaff dispensers (gaijin allows them to use flares ingame) which are taken from F-4E aircraft. They of the standard caliber variety ingame capable of deploying 30 countermeasures each. They’re the same dispensers added to the Netz “Mod” ingame.

[GranColombia]

Will the C10 have them too? I didn’t know that.

[ElGringo1121]

In theory all Kfir variants can use it, but the C10 has never been seen with them

[wokerxt-live]

Did you make a bug report?

[ElGringo1121]

Yes I did. But it was immediately closed as a duplicate, even thought my thread had more complete information. At least the original post was accepted and passed to the devs, a year ago…

[wokerxt-live]

Crazy

[Mr_Kiryu]

Hello everyone, I’ve had a reply ready for this thread for about a week, but of course le “you have insufficient activity to post” arised and it kept me from doing so.

So, here’s what I’ve found. I’ll be taking into consideration the Ecuadorian Air Force as one of the most notable operators of the Kfir (and the operator I know the most because I’m from there haha), this will make what I’m about to present a bit interesting, here are the findings:

Kfir C.2

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Kfir TC.2

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Kfir CE (C.10) [Active Service]

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Kfir CE (Rebranded as “C.2”) [Inactive, FAE Ceremonial Service]

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Kfir CE (Rebranded as “C”) [Inactive, FAE Ceremonial Service]

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https://youtu.be/1o9dr8OCan4?si=fC58VAnSJ_uLhLVO

Here is an entire video of a walkaround of FAE-909 one of the Kfirs that went through all the decommission states mentioned before

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With these images taken into consideration, I wouldn’t be so sure to say if the extra countermeasures set can be fit on the Kfir C.10’s, as historical pictures of the CE fleet have not shown them with these on except after their removal from service and adoption as ceremonial or display aircraft.

One could argue that if it still fits after the C.10 upgrade therefore it still can be used, but of course one would need to prove that the C.10 wiring can support these extra countermeasures, I choose to believe it can as the C.10 upgrade likely kept compatibility with already available FAE inventory.

[tokerstar]

I’m spading the C.7 ATM and its pretty grim. Cant see it being much better when I get the pythons.
It badly needs more CMs. The same number as the C10 would do.

Not played that many games yet in the Kfir C10 but already know it slaps… can see it being one of my favourite jets in the game. In a pretty dead tree its crazy the only fun kfir you have to spend £ to get.

[Mr_Kiryu]

In my experience the CM’s aren’t that much of a problem unless you’re facing an IRCCM missile, those are nearly unavoidable with how stupidly hot the J79 engine is, other than that, the CM placement also makes it harder to dodge them as well.

Other than that, the CM count is low, but not atrocious if you know how to manage and position yourself.

Once you unlock the Python 3’s you will unlock a bunch of new strategies.

My two favorites are either doing side-aspect shots, where the flare resistance kicks in, as well as high-altitude shots towards lower or higher targets.

Another bonus tactic is to lob them at people in head-ons, I’ve had very few Python 3’s be flared in head-ons at like 1km.

Oh and these tactics are even stronger in sim btw.

[ElGringo1121]

Finally found some pictures that confirm the Colombian Kfirs also have the pylon mounted countermeasures.

[GranColombia]

Definitely a spectacular find! I’d seen those images before, but I never realized this. It means the Kfir C.10 Block 60 could carry up to 192 countermeasures! This definitely needs to be reported. The same applies to the other Kfir versions. Did you already file the report, friend?

[BasherBenDawg8]

Hopefully it can act like a BOL pod does ingame, with the ability to mount a pylon with them, or still fly without the pylon for some who like the look/less drag.

Really hoping whatever happens it doesn’t become a permanent attachment of the plane.

[ElGringo1121]

Not on the official forum. If you want you can use this information and post it yourself.

[GranColombia]

I agree with you, it would be great if it could be added. I was looking into whether it was possible to add it to all bombs pylons (for CAS) and although I didn’t find any visual proof, it is known that the AN/ALE 40 dispenser could be installed on all sufficiently spacious pylons (including at least 1000 lb bombs and larger).

[GranColombia]

Okay, great! I’ve started looking into the information further and will have it ready soon. Thank you so much for your research. I also read that you tried to report it but it’s duplicated, so I’ll be careful not to duplicate it further as that would affect the report.

[Peter_Barakan]

I find ironic that the new MIG 21-2000 with same loadout to the Kfir C7 with HMD and 126 countermeasures in the same BR of the Kfir C7 just get 36 countermeasures but not large but normal. I forgot how many times I have been killed by SARH missiles grinding that plane.

[GranColombia]

I have already been able to verify the status of the reports related to this important finding and there is a contradiction based on conflicting sources.
On one side is the correct report with the labels “accepted” and “duplicate” ( Kfir C.2/C.7 missing AN/ALE-40 countermeasure dispenser pylon // Gaijin.net // Issues )
On the other hand, there is a report that was done earlier (which was the first one) but has a small source error: ( Kfir (all) missing countermeasures (additional dispensers) // Gaijin.net // Issues )
Why is the second report wrong? Because it specifies that the DM/A-202 dispenser is the one that should be in all Kfir variants. But from the limited information I’ve researched, this CM dispenser was manufactured in Chile for installation on Mirage 50 Panthera and F-5 Tiger III aircrafts. Although both planes was a modernization carried out by IAI, this may be the source of the confusion, in addition to the fact that they are physically different:

This: AN/ALE-40

This is be like: DM/A-202

So there’s a conflict between the reports accepted by the manager reports, which I think is delaying their potential acceptance, and the problem is that I wouldn’t know how to notify Gaijin since both were submitted as suggestions for variants C.2, C.7, and Cannard. Doing it again won’t help at all and will only worsen the situation, since it happened 2 YEARS AGO.