Hypothetical Poland/Eastern Europe Naval Tech Tree Project

[xPorkulusx]

Hello,

I am creating this thread to propose and discuss a potential naval tech tree for a hypothetical Poland/Eastern Europe tech tree, which has been rumored in the past.

I’m not writing this as a suggestion because I have not done nearly enough research to qualify it, and I’m hoping that through discussions here I can find some decent sources to potentially expand this to a full suggestion in the future.

This tech tree is (currently) a composite of the navies of four nations: Poland, which is rumored to be the main flag of the nation; Austria-Hungary, a predecessor to many Eastern European and Balkan states; Ukraine, which has access to the Black Sea; and Yugoslavia, another predecessor nation with significant naval history.

Each vessel in the tech tree is labelled with its country of origin (PL, A-H, UA, and YU respectively). Also included tentatively are Soviet vessels of the Black Sea Fleet built in Ukraine. I don’t think Gaijin would go for this as it would be controversial, but these vessels would mostly be copy/paste from the current USSR tree and help fill lineups, so I’m including them. Other vessels of similar types could still be added to the USSR tree. Otherwise, all listed (UA) vessels were at one point or another controlled by independent Ukrainian forces.

I currently have two completed Bluewater lines:

Ranks I-II

Ranks III-IV

Ranks V, VI, VIII

Based on my preliminary research, the Bluewater section has fewer options than the Coastal section will, and I was pleasantly surprised with how much I was able to find!

Let me know what you think and offer me suggestions so I can keep iterating on this and hopefully one day turn it into an actual Suggestions post!

[xPorkulusx]

Since I’m sure someone will ask, here’s what the bluewater tree would look like without the USSR vessels (I think it’s still pretty good)

[Kingtiez-live]

Stalingrad and Sovetskaya Ukraina are Soviet, why would they go to some random European tree, Ukraine in general will go to the Soviet tree.

[jon_man1199]

Not a bad idea here, though not sure how they’ll work Austria-Hungary, considering Hungary is an Italian Sub TT. As for the Ukrainian Stuff, I think you can leave Soborna Ukraina in your second TT. As for the Soviet ships built in Ukraine, I don’t think there’s a strong case to be made for adding those as part of the TT.

[xPorkulusx]

@jon_man1199

though not sure how they’ll work Austria-Hungary, considering Hungary is an Italian Sub TT.

I think it’s fair to give their naval assets to this tech tree on the basis of need. The Italian TT is more robust without A-H than this tech tree would be without it. Plus, if this hypothetical tech tree contains Croatia and Yugoslavia as the leaks suggested, then A-H is also a predecessor to those states.

@jon_man1199

As for the Ukrainian Stuff, I think you can leave Soborna Ukraina in your second TT.

I could, and it would be another unique vessel for the tech tree. But I also think that’s the exact reason why it would be disputed. The Soviets technically held onto it for longer, and since it was a project, neither faction used it for anything.

I’ll consider myself “on the fence.”

[xPorkulusx]

All right, I’ve further refined and improved the bluewater tree and I have a first draft of the coastal tree as well:

Yes, it gets cut off at the bottom. There’s nothing more there on this version, the tree ends at Rank VI.

[Jareel_Skaj]

No love for ORP Bałtyk? ;)

BTW: What’s are these Rank VI ships? I hope you do remember that only the ships that had their keel laid down can be included in the game, right?

[TomLiu126]

Battleship VIII probably refers to the lead ship of the Ersatz Monarch-class. I don’t think they were actually laid down (the materials were all ready, but the assassination of Archduke Franz Ferdinand delayed the laying down, then postponed due to World War I, and ultimately cancelled), but the guns that were designed specifically for the ships were built, so that might count under the “unique components” rule.

Soborna Ukraina was the Ukrainian/Soviet name for the Russian battleship Imperator Nikolai I, which was laid down and reached 60% completion before being scrapped.

[TomLiu126]

If Battleship VIII/Ersatz Monarch is allowed on the basis of the guns being built, I think we could try to add a couple different designs of it that all still used the same guns. The January 1914 design had 13 guns, which could plausibly allow for a version to sit at 7.3 or even 7.7, since the 35 cm guns are fairly decent, with about 2 rpm fire rate and approx. 680 cm penetration at point blank based on Jacob de Marre calculations.

[xPorkulusx]

@Jareel_Skaj

No love for ORP Bałtyk? ;)

The old battleship? It seems like it would be a bit further out of WT’s purview than the other oldest ships here, but it would probably fit into Rank IV which could use some help.

@TomLiu126 got them right.

Soborna Ukraina works under the “must be laid down” rule.

Battleship VIII would work if Gaijin allowed it to count since its guns were built.

@TomLiu126

If Battleship VIII/Ersatz Monarch is allowed on the basis of the guns being built, I think we could try to add a couple different designs of it that all still used the same guns. The January 1914 design had 13 guns, which could plausibly allow for a version to sit at 7.3 or even 7.7, since the 35 cm guns are fairly decent, with about 2 rpm fire rate and approx. 680 cm penetration at point blank based on Jacob de Marre calculations.

As far as we know Gaijin is still following the “one version of each named ship” rule, so we could only pick one.

7.3 could work for that design (any more info on it?) but 7.7 feels like a stretch, Fuso is 7.7 and while one gun short, would be faster, more armored, and have more AA.

[TomLiu126]

I got most of the information from Tzoli here S.M.S. Viribus Unitis - Austro-Hungarian Battleship - Preliminary Designs - Ersatz Monarch Class and also here KuK Kriegsmarine Capital Ship Projects | Secret Projects Forum. It’s the section called “Design XIII Pre-project (January 1914) - STT Project I”. Their information comes from some blueprints for that design that are also in the section. I have secondary confirmation from “Conway’s All the world’s fighting ships, 1906-1921” at page 335, where they call it “pre-project II”. The description there is exceedingly brief but fully corroborates Tzoli’s stats from the blueprints.

Dimensions: 196,5 (wl), 197,8 (oa) x 29,5 x 8,4m
Displacement: 32.000tons (standard)
Engines: 50.000shp Steam Turbines, 4 shafts
Speed: 43km/h (23knots)
Armour: 320mm Belt, 72mm Deck
Armaments:
3x3,2x2 35cm/45 Skoda K14 Cannons,
16x1 15cm Skoda K10 Casemated Guns,
8x1 9cm/45 Skoda K12 Guns
10x1 9cm/45 Skoda K16 AA Guns
8x1 53cm Underwater Torpedo tubes

[SoyBeanInhaler]

@Jareel_Skaj

No love for ORP Bałtyk? ;)

This one is very different from in French service, by the time Poland had it, it was mostly stripped of all guns but a few low caliber ones. It was mainly used for training, and wikipedia even says the 4 47mm guns it had were just for gun salutes.

It could go to the French tree right now in its original form though

As for the rest of this tree, I think it is an okay idea. I do think that Jugoslavija and A-H should be removed, as they dont really make all too much sense. I get the whole eastern europe idea but I dont think that would work too well.

There is also a few more ships Poland could add I believe, and you forgot a lot of modern corvettes and gunboats (many of which dont have missiles, or just something like strela)

[SoyBeanInhaler]

Potential ships from II RP:

ORP Burza (same as Wicher, but she survived the war) It has a 1929, 1942, and 1955 version

Orkan and Huragan are potential Grom class that didnt get completed

There are also like 6 potential WW1 German torpedo boats for coastal, they are like mini destroyers

There is also the Jaskolka class of minelayers, and a class of German minelayers from WW1.

I would also recommend checking out the II RP Polish inland fleet, which had a bunch of heavily armoured and gunned river monitors

II RP River

From wartime:

From wartime:

OF Ch 11 & 15

ORP S-1,2 and 3

There is also plenty more British destroyers that could be added in place of Jugo

Wartime ships picture

OF Ch 15 (afterwar in french service)

S-2

Postwar:

Postwar:

From Russia there are a bunch of torpedo boats based on the OD-200 Poland used.

This also seems to be missing the Project 30Bis destroyers, “Grom” and “wicher” (the communist basically just reused all old ship names)

There are some Pr. 1241RE ships which could be used, and the missiles on the be disabled like the albatros ships

Poland also used 2x D-3 torpedo boats. KT-81 and 82

You are forgetting probably one of the most important Polish coastal boats, the Project 663D and 664, which were designed and produced in Poland. There was one 663D and eight 664.

Poland also used one BMO ship, and as for large sub chasers they used a bunch of Project 122bis.

There are also more native coastal boats other than 663D/664. There is also the Pr.912M series (small and slow, but they have 2x AK-230). There is also the 918M series which is basically a large torpedo boat (like the 664), it has an early version with the 2M-3M gun, and late with a ZU-23-2M turret. There is also the 206FM minehunters which could be added as a top tier coastal (similiar to USS-Cyclone)

There is just so many coastal vehicles Poland has, I can not list them all here. But as for coastal, Poland has more than enough to be completely standalone with Jugo help. I would toss in maybe one or two Ukrainian ships in coastal as that would be the co-tree for this in theory. Here is the link to see all retired postwar: Okręty Marynarki Wojennej wycofane po 1947 roku – Wikipedia, wolna encyklopedia

Postwar ship picture (has the most)

OD-200 based ships

Pr.30Bis Wicher

Pr.1241RE Metalowiec

Pr.664 Sprawny (in service they used AK-230, the museum one has 2M-3M, also there isnt a picture of the 663D I could find as it was just a prototype for the 664)

Pr.122bis Zawziety

Pr. 912M Wytrwaly

One of the Pr.918M decommisioned as tourist attraction

Pr.206FM Mewa. the modernized versions has a Zu-23-2M and 2x Wkm-b. The original had 3x 2M-3M and designated Pr.206F

There are more online if you wish to search for them

Modern

There is the in service Pr.621M Slazak, this would be highest tier coastal. It doesnt have anti ship missile, but it has very good guns and Grom anti air missiles

I see orkan is already included, but there can be a Pr.660 variant and Pr.660M variant. M gets RBS 15

The last big coastal ship that could be included is the Pr.258 series of minehunters.

There are also a bunch of small 207 minesweeper variants like Pr. 207DM, Pr.207P, and Pr.207M

Modern pictures

Pr.621M Slazak and its sidegun. In the future I think it will get a set of harpoon missiles on the roof, but for now it doesnt have them

Pr. 660 Orkan before RBS 15, still with some modernization. This photo is from an arms convetion, and for some reason this ship has S-5 rockets on the back.

Pr. 660M Orkan with RBS 15

Pr. 258 Albatros with the new OSU-35K

Pr.258 Kormoran with old Zu-23-2M turret

Minesweepers of various Pr.207 variant

Also as in theory the Lublin Pr.707 could come as it does have a bunch of defensive armament.

Also Poland would be completely fine if they add submarines, as we had them since WW1.

From Ukraine you are missing a bunch of basically just ships they got from fall of soviet union, mainly just coastal ships. There are some powerful ones they have, but it would all be copy paste from USSR coastal top tier.

Also Volia I dont think every had anything to do with Ukraine as a state. Soborna Ukraina was an actually ship from the Tsardom, but it wasn’t in Ukrainian service as Soborna Ukraina. It seems to have been in Ukrainian service for a very short time (in the same time when part of Ukraine, Belarus, Lithuania, etc where indepenent before Russia took them again). It was named ‘Demokratiia’ (from what I can find), it was in Tsarist service from 1916-1918, Ukrainian service from 1919-1919, and then went to Soviet service.

[xPorkulusx]

Thanks for taking the time to make all of these suggestions and corrections! It’ll take some time to parse through all of them but there are definitely some I will integrate. There are a lot of vessels you mentioned that are already in the tree too (Pr. 30, Pr. 663, a few others), give it another read!

@SoyBeanInhaler

Also Poland would be completely fine if they add submarines, as we had them since WW1.

They definitely had a strong submarine force. I saved a spot to work on a submarine tree but waited to see how submarines would be added if they came in the last major of 2025… but they didn’t, so I’m going to leave that out yet.

Similarly, I’m also excluding any ships with powerful anti-ship missile armaments as those aren’t featured in the game yet. Any ships that do include them have their BRs estimated without such weapons.

@SoyBeanInhaler

As for the rest of this tree, I think it is an okay idea. I do think that Jugoslavija and A-H should be removed, as they dont really make all too much sense. I get the whole eastern europe idea but I dont think that would work too well.

If you put them together, there is enough to work as a full-fledged naval tech tree. Either one on their own will not have enough vessel diversity for both Bluewater and Coastal.

EDIT: Perhaps I should map out what just a PL/UA and A-H/YU/CR tree would look like individually

@SoyBeanInhaler

Also Volia I dont think every had anything to do with Ukraine as a state. Soborna Ukraina was an actually ship from the Tsardom, but it wasn’t in Ukrainian service as Soborna Ukraina. It seems to have been in Ukrainian service for a very short time (in the same time when part of Ukraine, Belarus, Lithuania, etc where indepenent before Russia took them again). It was named ‘Demokratiia’ (from what I can find), it was in Tsarist service from 1916-1918, Ukrainian service from 1919-1919, and then went to Soviet service.

Volia did serve with the Ukrainian People’s Republic navy briefly (with a service that basically consisted of it getting bounced back and forth across the Black Sea and between different factions). But that gives it as good of a claim to the Ukrainians as the Soviets have for their war prize battleships, which they have because their tech tree needs the help.

As for Soborna Ukrainia, it looks like you are correct in that during its time under the control of the Ukrainians (but never service as it wasn’t completed) it would have been Demokratiya. I’ll fix this in the next version.