Ho229 V3 engine thrust and handling issues have not been solved, and now face F86A and mig15? Looks like it's time for me to give up ho229 and give up WT

Machinery of War Discussion Aircraft
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Got some replays for you to see it in action! Look at the end of the post.

You missed the point. I did not mean to permanently limit yourself to 7G turns, but to do it when you do not need the full turn that bleeds all of your speed.
It was in reference to you stating you lose all of your speed fighting. You pull too hard when you do not need to if that happens.

If you’re losing that much speed, you’re spiraling up.

I understand what they can do perfectly fine, which lets me fight them effectively.

;_;

I’m posting replays as cold hard evidence. They should look at that, and think about the arguments (that they can test themselves) I’ve laid down.

Once again, I will reiterate that playing for a long time does not mean anything. You can still fail to learn certain things, for example, if you have certain firmly held beliefs that are false.

I included evidence of me fighting sabres and migs in the form of replays in this post you can access.

Nah, I want others to know what they can do with the Horten since I was able to do it. You’re adamant on convincing that the Horten can’t shoot above its weight class.

This does not make any sense to me. Did you want to write that if two of them attack at the same time I’m in trouble? Yeah maybe. Don’t disagree with that. You’d be in trouble in any plane though.

Stop being dismissive. Consider the arguments.

Here are 4 replays with 8.0 encounters:
Please watch from the enemy perspective camera first (option 2). You can also use sensor view to see energy states.

-Replay 1:
https://warthunder.com/en/tournament/replay/285513981136170488
@ 9:30 engaged mig15.

Spoiler

Note the dodge. I then go into a chase (motivation: if he turns, he dies), so neither of us is really gaining much energy other than the mig getting separation.
We both convert speed into alt. He does the LOOP achieving nothing of use, while giving me time to gain more energy for the next encounter.
He chases at high speed, I turn to cut distance, to set up a dodge and obfuscate the lead point. Execute dodge.
He LOOPs and starts another chasing attack, this time trying to anticipate the dodge and have me fly into his guns. Didn’t work out for him, I still dodged because I don’t randomly dodge, I look for the gun solution.
The energy difference between us is 200 kmh. We both go up. I missed a shot, and currently our enegry difference is 170 kmh with him slightly above me.
Map border disrupts our fight. He’s 700m above me, 100 kmh higher in speed. He dives at me with airbrakes out. I get on his 6 and kill him.
I understand, he doesn’t have 10k battles in the mig 15 so he probably didn’t know what to do right?

@ 14:27 engaged Su-11, Mig-9, and F89. Teammates arrived a bit later.

-Replay 2:
https://warthunder.com/en/tournament/replay/285520719939865170
@ 3:51 engaged mig15bis ish.

Spoiler

We LOOP and I attempt a shot. By the time he recovers from LOOP I’m decently far away and gaining energy for the next encounter.
In total (from starting turning to leveling out) I gained 500m worth of potential energy, without dropping in speed, thanks to the mig’s LOOP, which can be used in the next engagement.
He chases me, I set up a dodge, but he gets distracted. I dive on him but he leaves.

@ 6:31 I re-engage the same mig.

Spoiler

I LOOP him because I was diving and he was climbing before the merge. He airbrakes during the LOOP, and I notice that, so I push on the attack. Missed ;_;.
He leaves, but not really. Then he leaves for real because friendly IL-28 pressured him.

@ 8:40 I engage a sabre.

Spoiler

I set up a dodge, execute it, have him follow me, he overshoots, I miss an opportunity to shoot, but I get good position. I then shoot him down (we had 100 kmh speed difference in his favour).
And then the unthinkable happens: he gets a shot on my engine as he freesbees to the ground. Apologies for my Australian.
Okay, I repair and return back to battle.

@ 15:46 Killed two bombers that thought maneuvering next to me can get them anywhere.
@ 20:36 Tried baiting the F84F for the IL. He completely ignored me.
@ 21:57 I then fight a Vampire. Truly a ferocious 8.0 plane. It’s so good that the 7.0 Horten outaccelerates it, outturns it, maintains energy better, and has a higher top speed than it.

-Replay 3:
https://warthunder.com/en/tournament/replay/285527759391270418
@ 4:46 A wild sabre appears below me and goes up.

Spoiler

I kill him.

@ 5:12 A sabre from above and a vampire at co-alt approach me.

Spoiler

Vampire gets busy with someone else. Sabre ends up in front of me.
Oh no! He goes 50-80 kmh faster than me while turning! Whatever will I do? Shoot him to death.
The vampire gets overwhelmed by my team, we kill him.

@ 7:18 I dodge a sabre.
Yes, I know the sabre pilots here flew fundamentally wrong.

-Replay 4:
https://warthunder.com/en/tournament/replay/285530533940146238
@ 5:19 Engaged a sabre and F2H.

Spoiler

Try to see what develops. I extend away.

@ 6:04 Engaged sabre.

Spoiler

Dodge headon. He extends. I chase. He turns to me.
Ambiguous approach, so I do two chained jinks.
We go up. He overshoots in front of my face, but I just barely had energy to aim with. I go slightly down, and chase him. He LOOPs, I respond with relocating myself into his turn circle.
Friendly mig15 joins.
I dodge sabre shot. Position myself on his 6. Laggiest pursuit turn in my life, putting me at a higher speed than the sabre who is pulling for his dear life. Me and the mig (edit: and the Tunnan lmao) turn the sabre into a hamburger.

Considering the evidence posted, do you still think the Horten is as useless vs a Sabre/Mig15? Prerequisite: You have to watch the replays before answering. Bonus points if you actually watch the other replay I linked in my post on December 17th.

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69

What would you do in case of the horton in this situation? F86A5 (8.7) vs Horton (7.7):

No replay because… EC is horrible for replays and it’s been months ago. I’ve very little flight hours in the sabre because of spawn costs and despite my mistakes, I feel it was a terribly unfair fight.

ASB might change things around somewhat (aiming//gunsights/cockpit visibility) but raw performance should still be comparable to ARB given the same flight models.

The Horton gained position advantage on me with fairly light damage (got some hits in with 50 cals earlier, doubt it’d affect flight performance that much given horton engines are off-centre), had altitude and dived on me and I could just… pitch up and away without too much stress.

Horton vs Sabre, ASB

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HTfUq-2Uiz8

Like, it’s a full 1.0 BR difference so it makes sense. With brackets, the only time a horton has to fight a sabre is 2 days out of however many (2 out of 8 I think?) (however it has to deal with a saggitario 2 which it has to face on 8.0 and 8.3 days, which is 4 out of 8).

(I’m really curious what horton cockpit looks like, but it’ll probably be a few weeks until I unlock it.)

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Spoiler

@ 0:11 First of all I wouldn’t turn in front of an enemy plane like that. It achieves nothing tangible, and only enlarges your own profile to hit. I would at least point my wings towards your nose, and then jink up to dodge your attack, preferably after pulling a little negative G to have you lead away from the jink direction.
@ 3:03 seems like the enemy Horten is chasing you without enough speed. There is no reason for a Horten to chase a faster opponent that will not turn, as it will only result in an energy trap. There is also no reason to shoot from such long distances and giving away your own nose direction to opponents. The guns are slug shooting shotguns after all.
@ 4:28 bro gave up lol

It’s true, speed is king in the air after all.

That is very true. Rear visibility is very important for the kind of dodges I execute in ARB, and you can’t look through your own aircraft. It would require a new approach to be developed to force reliable overshots against faster opponents.

Surface damage harms Horten’s energy retention quite badly, both LER and MER, and harms acceleration. If the Horten is near an 8.0 with any kind of damage, the Horten should consider itself dead.

You can actually look at it right now, if you have an Nvidia GPU. Preview the Horten, then hit Alt+F2 to enter Ansel mode. Move the camera within the cockpit (hold ctrl for fine adjustment). It’ll be blurry, unfortunately, but you still get a rough overview!

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Spoiler

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Head position may be slightly different, but this looks about “right” looking at the crosshair. Yeah, it looks like it has a pretty bad rear visibility even if I offset some to the side. This probably contributes quite a bit to seeing hortens suffer the rare times I got the SL fly out my korean jets. In-game proper might still be better with the head movement keys, so still going to try and unlock it for a few custom a.i battles at least. It looks like a fun plane to fly for itself ( rudderless flying wing without SAS?)

It looks about comparable to the F6F-5’s visibility.

Spoiler

image

Given your replays/commentary and reply with its cockpit view making those maneuvers much harder, I do feel it might be justified (bad rear visibility while relying on fine maneuvers to force overshoots, damage model unable to handle minor damage around planes that in ARB are a full 1.0 uptier while in ASB are potential enemies 6 days out of 8) to either move the Horten down from 7.7 or decompress the planes around it. Right now, it always faces vampires (7.7), can regularly face La-200/La-7(8.0) , Saggitario 2(8.0), Mig 15(8.0) (4 days out of 8), rarely (2 days out of 8) F86A5 and Mig-15Bis(8.7). Planes at can rarely face the Ho229 are P51H (6.7), Spitfire 24 (6.7) (2 days out of 8).

Down at 7.3, it’d face yak9UT, Tempest Mk2, F7F, Ki84Hei, N1K2-Ja 2 days out of 8 and make the P15H and spitfire deal with it 4 days out of 8. (and probably some french/swedish/israeli things but I rarely see people flying planes from those trees outside of swedish bombers) - stuff it already can face in ARB. It would get 2 days out of 8 it doesn’t need to fight vampires and 4 days out of 8 it doesn’t need to fight the 8.0 list from above. It’d never need to fight sabres or mig15bises, but it would still face saggi 2 (4 days out of 8) and g.91 pre (2days out of 8).

I’m not sure how well it fares against the 6.3 props (plus that’s a BR bracket I flew the least both ARB/ASB). However, in ARB it does look like it faces most of them already there.

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Using standard energy fighting tactics combined with the turn performance, it makes the Horten untouchable to any prop, unless very good team work is involved on the part of the props.
No prop can maintain speed while turning at 700 kmh, and no prop can maintain 10 m/s climb at 700 kmh, so it is easy to manipulate the energy state of any prop a Horten can face.
The most a prop can do against a Horten is climb steeper to stay safe. If baited into a dive, the energy difference turns into an energy trap in favour of the Horten.

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I’m telling you what happens when you lose speed in horizontal maneuvers. Do you really understand what I’m saying? Oh my god

You said yourself that a speed under 7G can maintain speed, good, so a speed under 7G will allow you to avoid F86 or mig15 attacks in most cases?

OK OK you are the best, with your pilot, you surpass all players and can even win with a fighter below their 1.0! That’s great! I understand, so according to your statement, those who drive 3.0 fighters into the 7.0 room, lucky to win the victory, there will be your remarks, I think XXX fighter can fight back higher than his current level of fighters, I can do very well, it is your play is not good, is your own problem. But what is most of the time? Are you telling me that regardless of any game, the player only needs to operate normally to be able to perform stably, and the other player’s extreme operation can barely cope with the nature of the same? You don’t have to answer me that question, and I don’t need your answer, because you’re divorced from the truth.

There is a reason why I single out F86 or mig15, these two fighters…Original meaning

Finally I will explain and tell you why, the reason why I don’t want to discuss it with you anymore. As long as GAIJIN doesn’t make any changes to the current ho229 issues, anyone who has played or advanced ho229 will have a good idea. As for what I have said, there are people who can distinguish.

Attempting to operate the F86 or MiG-15 can provide insight into the performance characteristics of these aircraft, as well as highlight the limitations of the Ho229, particularly its inferior acceleration, as previously mentioned. When engaging with the F86 or MiG-15, one must consider the historical context of over 2,800 enemy aircraft destroyed, excluding nearly a year’s worth of data. After filtering out versions 6.0 and 7.0, we are left with version 8.0 fighters. How many of these did you actually shoot down? Furthermore, reviewing footage of engagements with novice F86 or MiG-15 pilots or incomplete airframes does not substantiate the claim that the Ho229 can effectively counter these aircraft. Does this reasoning hold water? Would the evidence and data you possess support such an argument if presented to another individual?

The Ho229’s ability to counter the F86 or MiG-15 is questionable. It is unwise to draw conclusions based solely on a few victories against inexperienced pilots or incomplete aircraft. With sufficient experience, one should be able to discern the pilot’s skill level, the completeness of the airframe, and the appropriateness of maneuvers, all of which influence the outcome.

To summarize your points: First, you assert that the Ho229 can effectively counter the F86 or MiG-15. Second, you believe that experienced players with more combat records than you lack a deeper understanding of the aircraft, attributing this to fatigue and suggesting that you can better exploit the full potential of the fighter. However, this perspective overlooks the broader context and the actual performance metrics of the Ho229.

Your argument hinges on a few victories against the F86 or MiG-15, disregarding the broader operational environment and the specific conditions under which the Ho229 operates. Even if you are an exceptionally skilled player, achieving optimal results through advanced techniques, the majority of players operate at a basic level. How often do they encounter situations similar to yours, where the opposing F86 or MiG-15 is at a disadvantage?

Previous responses have thoroughly analyzed your historical data (types of enemy fighters shot down), your discussion framework, and your basic understanding of the Ho229, especially regarding its maneuverability and speed retention issues. The Ho229 is designed as an energy fighter, and while BZ is a conventional tactic, it heavily relies on altitude. Evasive maneuvers cause significant speed loss, and the only way to regain speed quickly is to dive. This reliance on energy output for evasive maneuvers, without significant speed, makes it vulnerable to energy-based tactics from the F86 or MiG-15. In most scenarios, especially against multiple F86 or MiG-15 opponents, the Ho229 struggles to counter effectively.

Therefore, I will not engage further in this discussion.

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Both views are done while the camera is zoomed out.

Forward

Screenshot 2024-12-18 102734
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Due to the offset sight, you get more visibility looking one direction than the other if you don’t move the camera.

Looking back to the right

Screenshot 2024-12-18 102758
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You’re grasping for straws here. Upgrades to Korean jets will not change anything when fighting planes made in earlier time periods. Going from massive energy capabilities to massive energy capabilities + extra makes no difference in the context of fighting planes with drastically different strength points.

If you look at what I did in the replays, you will see that it does not matter how skillful the opponent is or how lucky I may be, because I physically FORCE opponents to miss me. There is no luck involved, and competent players still have to obey physics. To hit someone, the attacker MUST lead. The shells MUST travel, and that takes time. Both of those conditions give me a window where I can move myself out of potential hits, completely safely. Watch the replays.

This is very much a possibility. The number of battles (or K/D or K/B) does not indicate with certainty that the player learned everything they could. When gauging how skillful a pilot is, what truly matters is what a pilot does in battle. I watched some of your replays, and from seeing your playstyle, I can perfectly see why you complain about thrust issues and running out of energy in LOOP.

Spoiler

The replays I watched were:
https://warthunder.com/en/tournament/replay/285366375994863773
https://warthunder.com/en/tournament/replay/285362003718150459
https://warthunder.com/en/tournament/replay/285359701615676789
https://warthunder.com/en/tournament/replay/284625219261697224
In every single one of them you turned too hard, bleeding all of your speed when you did not need to do so. I’m not going to mention even more mistakes you committed in other times.

As another example, I’ve met a certain player that has an OBSCENE number of battles in ONE plane (some crazy number like 25k battles, don’t remember the exact number). He even had a positive K/D! Surely he’s a grandmaster of all War Thunder players right?
His playstyle was as follows: Climb to space, do nothing, wait until enemy team is down to a few players, then dive from space to the deck, often just compressing into the ground. He was not a bot, he responds in chat. I like him for his personality so I’m not going to share his name.
The tens of thousands of battles did not teach him how to use that one plane.

That’s not a reason to handhold them. They should learn how to use the plane. There is nothing wrong with planes that require learning to be effective with.

I don’t think so.

Excellent, interacting with a brick wall is quite tiring, surprisingly.

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Your patience is admirable.

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a little late bud yes it has the wrong engines as gaijin just copied some engines from different jets such as the 262 rather than add the engines it really had irl which are jumo 004B2 engines not 004D engines which are only a minor difference plus A real fake plane would be the r2y2 or f16 AJ which are crackpipe planes gaijin cooked up cause there lazy

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this point also goes for the ho229 as it was meant to be armed and enter production

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the power difference between the 004D engine and 004b2 is not much 90 KG which doesnt change the plane much at all

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The difference for between the engines is 140 kgf (910 kgf for the 004B, 1050 kgf for the 004D).

That’s a 15% increase, which is pretty big.

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the JUMO 004B2 has about 900kg of thrust according to most muesums

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you are right yes because i looked at the wrong jumo its a 15% increase that gijin wont at add because of balance reasons they refuse to give its actual top speed and restrict it for some reason

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What do you mean “Gaijin won’t add”?

The Ho 229 literally already has the Jumo 004D engines with higher thrust. It has already been added.

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what they did i meant sorry is gave it a extra thrust instead of its actual topspeed