Greco-Iberian Ground Forces Tech Tree

[BSpiel8]

I have tried to piece together the Greek M163 equivalent best I can, this is what I have so far.

Two tests of the M61A1 Vulcan on the M113A1 hull were conducted on March 30th, 2012, and 11th of January 2014. This is referenced by the official Hellenic army website itself.
Activities – Army.gr

I think this might be the first prototype after a few changes? The serial number is unfortunately censored but the camo scheme is identical. Regardless, the lack of a refined gun mount and sighting device is obvious to set it aside from the newer model.

Spoiler

Initial vehicle featured in this suggestion, likely quite early in development judging by the rudimentary and oddly colored gun mount, the BMP-1/ZU-23 combination to the left (see full image in suggestion) is a pre-production testing vehicle for the ones we know today. The M113A1/ZU-23 combination to the right is also a prototype, so this was probably back before the army had decided which weapon they wanted to arm this APC with.

Images of the same APC, identified through the camouflage, lower plate number (on the first image you can just barely see that it’s a 12 or 13), and the almost identical albeit repainted gun aparatus with the large yellow X. Alongside the Sokous vehicle at the bottom of this suggestion, these images are quite possibly from one of the two reported tests of this vehicle.

Somewhat recently, on June 5th, 2024, a new model was revealed, with what appears to be a thermal sight, and reportedly, new internal computer systems (FCS?) developed after feedback from Ukraine.

Spoiler

There are a few slight variants I could find of this last photo, which tells me that there may possibly be a video somewhere.

It seems there is a completely separate vehicle developed by Greek company Sokous Robots. I am not sure how it connects to the other prototype featured in this suggestion; perhaps it was merely an independent competitor. Nonetheless, the technology included is certainly more sophisticated over the other prototype from this time period.

Spoiler

The first of two videos, a simple firing test, was taken 12 years ago, which confirms that this vehicle is from the initial developments of this project. The second video is a more in-depth view of this prototype.

The embed for the first video wasn’t working, so you can paste DefenceNet.gr - Βολή M113 Gatling into Youtube to find it instead. Alternatively, I have a slightly shortened version I downloaded from Twitter.

Second video below
https://youtu.be/hLj9nHsKmHY?si=DFOnE1wpoI6XfTDU
Two images of this prototype. Interestingly, I happened to find the first one on the same official Hellenic army website that I did for the testing photos of the other early prototype, so the Sokous vehicle was either tested alongside the it or closely monitored by the military enough so that its imagery would appear in the same photo group (on purpose or by accident). Note that the first image also has a timestamp for March 30th, 2012, which further reinforces this date as the testing period for this prototype.

Anyhow, that’s what I’ve gathered for the moment, but evidently the Hellenic knockoff M163 is a lot more than some makeshift unit modification. And as of this year, it seems that Greece has reignited this project, so I am interested to see where it eventually leads.

[AspandaIV]

There are other Leonidas 2 variants that can be added

Leonidas 2 with a 20mm autocannon (most likely a Rh202)

Spoiler

Leonidas 2 with a turret made by DAF armed with a 25mm

Spoiler

Leonidas 2 with yet another turret design armed with a 25mm

Spoiler

There is also a Leonidas 2 with a turret from Cockerill that can either mount a 90mm or a 105mm

[ChieftainWarrior]

@BSpiel8

Sorry for the late reply, my draft seems to have gotten deleted. But as promised, here are some options I believe could be plausible for this tree.

Thank you for these! I’ll try and add at least some of them.

@BSpiel8

A Spanish project to implement the 105/26 Reinosa cannon on a StuG III chassis, known as the Obus Autopropulsado de 105 mm.

I left these out because I couldn’t find anything reliable about the potential prototype. However the Obus 122/46, related to this project, was more clear about having a (partial) prototype constructed, so I included that one.

@BSpiel8

A second Spanish ATGM vehicle based on the M41 chassis, and armed with the HCT turret containing four HOT missiles. I imagine you already know of this one

I did yes, I left it out because the turret was a mock-up; only the TUA version was fully-functional.

@BSpiel8

In addition, the turret was combined with the AML-60 armored car, creating a functional prototype for test purposes. Either this or the BMR-620 would make for an interesting AA option in the tree.

I knew about this one but I forgot to include it. Will do a bit more research if I can and try and fit it in.

@BSpiel8

I have tried to piece together the Greek M163 equivalent best I can, this is what I have so far.

Excellent info, thank you so much! I’ll have a further look into it, maybe both variants can be added.

@AspandaIV

There are other Leonidas 2 variants that can be added

I knew about all of these, and considered them, but unfortunately there’s just too little information.

• I don’t know what turret model the Rh202 is in, and whether it’s equipped with any laser rangefinder or thermal sight
• The version with the FMC EWS is the easiest one to add, and I was very close to doing so, but I need to do more research on the turret and what particular version is fitted here (which may mean it gets thermals)
• Again, unsure on the turret model and FCS characteristics of the other 25mm turret
• I haven’t found any reliable info on the 90/105mm armed version. I suspect it never existed, and was mistaken for the version armed with the ET-90 II

[dejece_001]

Great job but I prefer a sub-tech tree for Italy because It would balance the game more.

[YaSen]

@spartinwarrior64

this is why i wanted the osorio to be added to the italian tt instead of the 2A7HU as it’s original instead of another leopard tree

While Osorsio is definitely interesting and unique it isn’t top tier material, it can’t be instead of 2A7HU.

[vizender]

While there are some very interesting vehicles here, I don’t think Iberian peninsula and Greece + Cyprus should be in the same tree.
Yeah they are from the EU, yeah they are Mediterranean.
But, that’s really about it.
I think it would have made more sense for the Iberian peninsula to join Italy or France (but it’s a bust since they already have their subtrees), and Greece and Cyprus to join a more Eastern European tree, like a Balkan tree.

[el_Argentino]

@dejece_001

Great job but I prefer a sub-tech tree for Italy because It would balance the game more.

You know that won’t happen. Italy already has Hungary and is receiving even more vehicles from Romania. At this point, adding Spain to Italy would be a waste.

@ChieftainWarrior

Equally though, if Gaijin doesn’t want to add Alliance trees, it might be a bit difficult. This tree can be marketed as Spain, just with added Portuguese vehicles and a Greek/Cypriot sub-tree. A joint LatAm-Iberian tree can’t really be marketed as e.g. Spanish or Brazilian because no single country would make up a majority of the vehicles.

The solid options for adding a main nation’s tech tree are running out (if they haven’t already). Eventually, coalition trees will need to be added, or the game’s growth pace will slow down.

Knowing Gaijin, they’ll want to reuse existing assets and maximize profits. So, a redesign of tech trees is likely. Players have been asking for revised tech trees and sub-trees with more separated tabs. A regional nation setup with tabs for each participating country could work. Most vehicles are already in the game—just modify and reskin them.

[spartinwarrior64]

hell of a lot better than the arietes, plus i don’t acc know what br to put it at

[YaSen]

You overestimate a lot, it’s 2A4 counterpart at max.

Engesa Osório EE-T1 120mm - Brazil goes to the tank championship in Saudi Arabia Pt. 2/2

poll poll poll Engesa Osório EE-T1 120mm [image] *Note for those who like osorio,the official name of the osorio has always been EE-T1, and the name EE-T2 was never formally made official, being sometimes used within the company among some of the staff. Back to Saudi Arabia 1987: The Definitive Stage [image]

Spoiler

<a class="lightbox" href="https://forum-en-cdn.warthunder.com/original/3X/5/a/5ac3f74c78bf5053778026f047724fda408da47c.jpeg" data-download-href="/uploa…

[Colerend]

some stuff

[ChieftainWarrior]

Got 2/3 already. No need for the M113 with ZU-23 given it would just be a slightly worse BMP-1 ZU-23

@ChieftainWarrior

M113 (M61)

Greece has received hundreds of M113s, with around 2000 currently in service. The first deliveries occurred in the 1960s, and have continued throughout the years. In 2014, the decision was made to phase out around 250 BMP-1A1s and replace them in-part with M113s. In late 2013, three prototypes mating APC hulls with auto-cannons were produced, including an M61 gatling gun on a M113 hull – similar to the M163, but lacking the radar and an actual turret.

BR 7.3.

Armament: 20mm M168
Mobility: 212hp, 65km/h
Armour: 38/44/38mm hull

@ChieftainWarrior

BMP-1A1 (ZU-23)
Suggestion Post

In 1994, Greece received 500 BMP-1A1 Ost’s from Germany as part of a much larger weapons sales package to Greece and Turkey, intended at selling large quantities of ex-NVA equipment. In 2014, the decision was made to phase out around 250 BMP-1s and replace them in-part with M113s. In late 2013, three prototypes mating APC hulls with auto-cannons were produced, including a 23mm ZU-23-2 on a BMP-1A1 hull. This was the only successful design, and a number of vehicles have since been converted.

BR 6.0.

Armament: 23mm ZU-23-2
Mobility: 300hp, 60km/h
Armour: 19/18/16mm hull; Very thin turret

[spartinwarrior64]

i’m not a good judge of br, please outline the reasoning

[YaSen]

Overall characteristics, but mainly armor (even if they model it “as planned”) + mobility wise it has almost the same hp/t as Ariete. Also it has the same cannon as AMX-40, so it’d be quite limited in terms of firepower.

[BSpiel8]

Some Greek M8s had their Hercules JXD gasoline engines swapped for Steyr Diesel ones (although I’m not aware of which model), while the coaxial MG was replaced by a faster firing MG3.

Personally, I think this would be a better candidate for a 1.3 LT in line 5 than the SARC Mk.IVF that is already there, considering that the M8 Diesel is an indigenous modification.

[ImportantSimone5]

@ChieftainWarrior

🇪🇸 Chevrolet (Breda)

Chevrolet 1939 (Breda)

So, this vehicle would be uncomfortable I think (low depression for front and side arc) and truck far too big for such a weapon.
I propose to replace that vehicle with this one:

GAZ-AA with Breda 20/65.

[ChieftainWarrior]

Nice find, thanks!

[ImportantSimone5]

Sadly for there is only 1 source that talk about it.
Dammit.

[ChieftainWarrior]

UPDATE

Vehicles added:

• Bravia Chaimite V-200 (Peru) – BR 6.7
  • Chaimite in Peruvian service with a 106mm M40 recoilless rifle
• T-34-85 (M1919) – BR 5.7, Premium.
  • Cypriot T-34-85 with an M1919 instead of the .50 cal
• CCKW (25 pdr.) – BR 1.3
  • Portuguese truck with 25 pdr. in the bed
• GAZ-AA (Breda) – BR 1.3
  • Spanish GAZ-AA with 20mm Breda

Vehicles removed:

• M56 Scorpion
  • The Peruvian V-200 takes its place
• Chevrolet 1939 (Breda)
  • The GAZ-AA takes its place

Vehicles moved:

• 9K33 Osa: BR 10.7 → 10.3

Vehicles renamed:

• Leopard 1A3GR → Leopard 1A4GR
  • This was a typo, Greece never had the 1A3

Notes:
Will update the main post to include these soon. Thanks to @BSpiel8 and @ImportantSimone5 for your suggestions!

There are 2 vehicles I would really like to add but I’m lacking information on:

• Chaimite with Armada 60 or 90 rocket launchers
  • Either mentioned as M20 90mm Super Bazookas, M1 60mm Bazookas, or a domestic design. Haven’t found anything conclusive

• Libyan Chaimite with some sort of ATGM launcher or MLRS

If anyone has either information on the rocket launcher model for the first, or more images of the Libyan model, please share!

[AspandaIV]

Posting it here due to no Ibero-Hellenic/Greco-Iberian Air TT proposal. Spain is procuring the Hurjet to replace their aging fleet of F-5’s

Spain to procure Türkiye's Hurjet trainer aircraft - Türkiye Today

[ChieftainWarrior]