Give Leclerc tanks SHARD ammunition

Clarify a few things more for me. Before I grinded France I was playing the US, mainly the Abrams.

The M1A1 HC/M1A2, Leclerc, and Leopard 2A5 existed together at one point in time, and my memory may be hazy but it was not a popular sentiment at the time that the Leclerc was any better than either of those two tanks in terms of totality for mobility, firepower, and protection.

What has changed for people to consider the Leclerc to be on par with Leo 2A7 and M1A2 SEPV2 despite those vehicles being upgrades?

1 Like

DGA works this way usually

They announce the start of a project, then nothing for years, and out of the blue they announce some important step / qualification.

for one continous nerfs on leos and abrams.
i can specify for the leo better at least.

Gun wrongfully getting raised higher at the backside.
Turret basket since multiple patches being restricted to leo and abrams
Blowout panels not saving the crew anymore.

Oh yeah gajin is implementing fcs for anti heli purposes. But only specific variants. So germany does not get it.

Even when we literaly have DM11 as a timed fuze anti air round

And so on, the leo model is broken at several places where armor is non existent and its 2 years since we were promised Damage model reworks in a dev blog.

Multiple “smaller” changes over time that added up on top of each other.
Specialy the turret basket right now is an realy unfair thing

reminds me, was reported that it needs to get removed from the leclercs
https://community.gaijin.net/issues/p/warthunder/i/nhVnjp3IeDeb
So if it stays, even if in real life ? it works the same as leopards thats another bias

thats the thing, DGA themself didnt announce the start at the first place yet, if i am not wrong
I mean we got a similar situation with DM83 right now. But we know its already getting qualified

How good would shard be in game

sth around DM53, slightly worse i think it was

Well it wouldn’t be the first time would it

1 Like

French players will tell you it’s a 1500mm spall monster, the lanz-odermatt formula tells a different story.

Probably equivalent to DM53 as Shini said, but I expect it to come with a new generation of darts, something that really isn’t needed imo

Wait if this is the case, why is anyone whining about SHARD’s* performance?

3 Likes

Why did you like a post that said a DM53 equivalent shell should only come when DM73 comes? @I_MiikaL_I

5 Likes

@DirectSupport if you took the time to read this, you’d note that I don’t think SHARD is necessary

Right, why do you think Leclerc doesn’t need a DM53 equivalent shell when that is already in-game on the Leopard 2s?

1 Like

Because it has the 5 second autoloader, which is more beneficial than any amount of pen

Plus significantly better mobility than the DM53 wielding Meta leopards

Its been a while and I dont recall everything beside Leo 2A5 having at one point only 481mm@10m@0°, while 3BM42 had 479mm@10m@0° (its been longer from release of Leo2A6 to today than from time i started playing to release of Leo 2A6, god im old).

I cant recall correctly if Leclercs had always 5 sec reload or it was 6 sec at one time.

So I really wouldnt dwell on it, since I dont believe theres any fruitful discussion to be had tbh.

Well… lets compare 2A7, M1A2 SEPv2 and Leclerc AZUR.

If we look at the MFP triangle again, then:

Firepower:

In terms of pen, Leclerc has worst one, 2A7V wins here, but SEPv2 isnt exactly far behind.

This can go a lot deeper tho, because we can start talking about tresholds - ie. if your round reaches certain penetration, it doesnt matter if its 620mm pen or 650mm pen, they will go through the target all the same. This is best done against specific examples. To demonstrate, lets imagine encounter between any of those compared tanks, and say, Ariete. Does Leclerc have the worst pen out of all three? Yes. Will it slice through Ariete in the same way like DM53 would? Also yes. It also works in the opposite direction - if none of the compared rounds can reach certain treshold, it doesnt matter if you have 650mm pen or 580mm pen. For example, none of the tanks can lolpen UFP a BVM, so all three have to go for weakspots. Higher pen still means more reliable penetration, but thats neither here or there.

In terms of ammo selection SEPv2 likely wins. Beside good sabot it has proxyfuze HEAT-FS, standard HEAT-FS and even the one of a kind HE-OR.

In terms of ready-rack size, Leclerc wins with 22 rounds aviable, which is AFAIK one of the, if not the largest ready-rack on any top tier MBT (might be a tie with some russian autoloaders).

In terms of overall ammo capacity and its storage, Abrams wins, as all of its ammo is stored in turret (the most armored part) with blow out panels.

In terms of reload rate, its a tie between Abrams and Leclerc, but Leclerc gets its reload rate straight out of box and its not dependent on loaders training or loaders cranium being intact.

In terms of gunlaying capability, they all have same horizontal speed, 2A7V wins on the horizontal speed.

In terms of gun depression, its a win for Abrams.

In terms of gunner optics, Abrams wins.

In terms of thermals…I actually dont know which gen thermals does Leclerc has, so you might wanna fill me in. All I know is that 2A7V is the only german tank to get gen2 gunner thermals, and that SEPv2 should also have gen2.

All three have dual controls.

In terms of secondaries, Abrams wins on sheer amount of them as well as having commander .50cal. Leclerc gets coax .50cal and commander 7.62mm, 2A7V gets 2x 7.62mms. This doesnt come into play that often, but .50cal can destroy walls etc. unlike 7.62mm. Its also good to have .50cal aviable to teach those pesky jokesters that bring some undertiered meme wagon to top tier a valuable lesson. It also comes handy for those occasional heli rushers.

In the next patch, Leclers are also one of the few tanks that get automatic air target tracking, so they have some limited anti-air capability unlike the other two.

Mobility:

In terms of HP/T, Leclerc wins undeniably wins, it has 3.7 more HP/T than the other two.

In terms of max speed, Leclerc wins.

In terms of reverse speed, its a tie between Leclerc and SEPv2.

Survivability:

This is where it might get subjective, so lets get the easy things out first.

In terms of aviable crew, its a tie between 2A7V and SEPv2. Trade-off for Leclercs autoloader.

In term of smoke grenades, Leclerc wins on count, but im actually not familiar with how many are launched per salvo.

Abrams gets ESS over the other two. How useful that is might be subjective. Id say its usefulness is limited, but its still something Abrams has over the two.

Leclerc gets LWS; how useful that is again might be subjective, but id say you get more utility ouf of it in average game, so its more useful.

In terms of hull frontal protection, 2A7V wins no doubt.

In terms of turret frontal protection, 2A7V wins no doubt, but only if the wedges are still present. If they were shot off/destroyed, Abrams might be better.

In terms of side protection, theyre all NATO MBTs and dont have Relikt™ bags, they all get penned the same.

In terms of spall liner, we have no spallliner.” 2A7V is the only one that has it as far as I can see, and while its usefulness is nowhere near where it was on release, its still an objective upgrade to not having it.

In terms of ammo storage layout, Abrams wins by a mile.

Not feeling like discussing weakspots rn, but obviously it would be tie between Leclerc and Abrams.

Point is, comparison between the three isnt all black and white, theres lof of effin gray too.

And then we can also start talking about what is actually usefull to the meta and what is not lol.

Theres probably lot of stuff ive missed and/or didnt type out, its complex issue after all, so feel free to fill me in if you feel ive missed something.

EDIT:

Oh also Leclerc doesnt get turret basket unlike the other two (at least for now) and only Leopard 2 gets affected by the NATO hump™ (because devs cant come up with proper method of balancing).

3 Likes

I read through what you wrote but it didn’t sit well with me because it really undersold the importance of armor and oversold the importance of mobility. I would gladly sacrifice some mobility for more protection. I asked some players who had all top tier tanks, and they still did not rate the Leclerc SXXI as being the best tank in the game if it got DM53

Spoiler

Of course having good armor is better, no one denies that.

But you cant really undersell the mobility either ;)

You certainly can when said mobility was foregoed for a reason by the Germans in exchange for more armor, it wasn’t a mistake on their part.

1 Like

You can carry 37 rounds on 120 Abrams.

Spoiler

Just to nitpick, its 10 (Abrams) 9 (Leo) 8 (Leclerc). You’d be surprised how much that extra 2 on the Abrams comes in handy.

Leo has Gen 3, Abrams and Leclerc have Gen 2. Not that it makes any difference.

M1A2s have 3 pops of 4, M1A1 HCs have 4 pops of 4.
Leo has 6 pops of 2.
Leclerc has 2 pops of 7.

Leo takes the win here.

Only the AZUR, which is more than 3 tons heavier than the S1.

2A7V actually has worse turret armor than Abrams, as the breach size was significantly increased by trunnions. Though the Leo has the arrowheads on the side, which tank anything. They are sidegrades.

Abrams has wayyyyy more armor than Leclerc, its not even close.

M829A2 @500m

Spoiler

image
image

1 Like

If you’re setting out to make the leclerc ‘the best tank in the game’, then it is more telling about your problematic ideology regarding french vehicles.

This complied with your dubious and extreme support for the rafale have diminished my trust in your suggestions.

Leclerc can get F2 and keep it’s 5s reload, or it can get shard and leopard can get 5s reload or DM73

1 Like

You really did not understand the point of my post then. The point is that a Leclerc SXXI with DM53 is still worse than some vehicles currently in the game so there’s no argument to not give it SHARD on the basis of performance.

1 Like