German ground toptier

Game Discussion Realistic Battle
14

No one else in the big 3 or sweden has multiple examples of undertiered overperforming vehicles, just russia.

F14 didn’t practically get its own trailer and fox 3 exclusivity for over a year? All the other undertiered and busted US planes. That was all just a dream.

Mig 23/29 fm wasnt nerfed to dust and they just ignored all the bug reports. R73 was added when it was supposed to be and wasn’t removed from the update after people whined.

The only difference is there isn’t a large group of rabid anti US or anti German etc. crazies on here letting whatever percieved bias live rent free in their head 24/7 making lists.

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15

The turret basket should reduce spall according to the manual of Leo tanks.
The autoloader module does protect the ammo IN GAME. I know it doesnt IRL, but it WT, it unfortunately does. As I said, I experienced it many times and im not alone.
And with the third paragraph I dont agree. Leos are good, they are very good, but recently I played a bit with the russians, and T80’s and even T72B3 are also very capable. Sure, you dont have good reverse speed and depression, but you have good frontal protection that allows you to rush and peek around the corners. You still can get killed, but it is definitely easier to be aggresive in Russian tank.
And lastly, I dont mind that this or that tank isnt good enough/is too good. I have a issue with unrealistic nerfs that simply apply to only some vehicles.

16

I know, it’s a gameplay thing that aimed to adress the simplicity of Damage Models where a sideshot that would normally always be crippling on a real tank ended up better off in the game.

Similarly a number of top tier tanks have a one-shot mechanic in fuel explosions that is complete nonsense, but aims to nerf fuel tanks blackholes.

17

I agree, I see it quite similarly. The biggest issue isnt the strenght of the vehicles itself, is the unrealistic depiction of them

18

You are just praying the guy you rush takes a bad shot, and in the case hes not paying attention and you kill him you are now stuck out in the open for anyone else to kill you. You shouldn’t be rushing around corners to shoot someone that knows you are there in any tank, and the cases where its to kill somone not looking you are better off doing so in a tank with reverse so you can get out of there asap and back into cover.

And for t series its incredibly rare for the auto loader to get hit and not send the turret to space. About as rare as when i shoot forward leo ammo rack and only turn it orange. Ya its frustrating and you remember that 1 time more than the 50 times it doesn’t happen.

I brought up spall because you mentioned you were shot in the engine and lost your ring.

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19

Could we private message on this topic? Because I feel like there are lot of things regarding “bias” and I would like to debate on it with somebody who has different opinion.

20

Yeah I agree with this. IRL the mdoern ammo is so strong it always breaks something etc. and shooting side of the tank just for nothing to happen was odd. I just dont think its good to reverse the irl effect of the modules. This basket should protect, in game it cripples. Russian autoloader module should cripple, it actually protects the ammo quite often.

21

IDC either way I have russia and german ground and air fully unlocked.

You’ll get better discussion having it in the open here though because people could respond to what I say instead of just my side. It is your thread.

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22

Yeah I agree, that you are praying that the other guy messes up. But he has higher chance of messing up when its the russian tank rushing him, because he needs to aim more carefuly. Also, this game is about other players mistake. If everybody played the best they could and without mistakes, we wouldnt get any kills.
In terms of the ammo carousel, at least when they added it, it was pretty common, especially with weaker guns. for example when you were shooting the TURMS-T with 105mm Abrams, it was like every other shot that was blocked by the carrousel. Maybe its better now, but I rather suspect its not that common on top tier, because everybody has stronger ammo. Nevertheless, the issue is still there in my opinion.

23

Yeah but its quite cluttered here, so I wanted the converstaion to be little bit more clear so we dont get lost with replies each answering different stuff etc.

24

Yea, sometimes there are better vehicles in other techtrees, but they are better, because they are better in Real Life. Russian tech always sucked.
Not that gaijin would artificially nerf nato stuff because of that, no no no nooooo, they would never do that. Besides doing it all the time.

Many, russian vehicles where nerfed later on, but not before being a nightmare for a long time. I went through the entire german Helicopter Tree when there was still Heli PvP and the Ka-50 was released.
That thing was on russian propganda fantasy mode for years, before finally getting nerfed to somewhat realistic levels.

And, why are there cosntantly people complaining about russain bias ? because it happens every update.

Just look at the never build Sovetsky Soyuz oneshoting everything will tanking everything and the Kh-38 just nukeing everything with GPS accuracy now.
A missel that hasn´t been even used yet, with there real states been unkown.

I can´t remember a singel time where there wasn´t something OP in teh russian arsenal.
Oh, and the F-14 got its own trail.
The Su-25 and 39 got there own story, spread over multible trailers, an own music track and a monument on Sverks-13.

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25

I think of it more like risk management, any time you take a shot or advance you are taking a risk. How much of a risk depends on a lot of factors, outside of the vehicle you have situational awareness, which is why I made a thread whining about scout drones recently giving you such an advantage its absurd in that department that playing anything else feels like playing blind. The second part of the risk assessment pertains to the vehicle itself, for russian tanks you are trading time being exposed for better armor which imo is just a bad trade because you don’t control what kind of shots your enemy takes.

I can say with certainty peaking over a hill or around a corner to take a shot is a lot more risky in a T series because of time of exposure during and after the fact compared to something like a leo 2. There isn’t any way to quantify survivability provided by armor like you can for timed exposed in a situation, but I don’t really think russian tanks have a significant advantage in that regard, its there its marginal for sure, but not so much that you can feel confident to rely on it like you can mobility.

To build more on the risk management thing im sitting

here

shot 2025.06.26 12.54.09
shot 2025.06.26 12.54.092560×1080 960 KB

In my tam. I the only one on my team near A, going for it is pretty much suicide, my best course of action is to camp here and kill people to prevent our spawn from getting camped and not letting anyone on the west flank. I can safely just sit in this bowl, which btw is off limits to russian vehicles because they can’t depress over this hill, use 3rd person camera and just peek and shoot people, and the whole process takes like 3 seconds from moving, shooting to back in cover, the risk is minimal if the guy im shooting at isn’t looking my direction and the only way I die is I had bad situational awareness or just plain bad luck and there was a 3rd party somewhere looking at me waiting for me to pop up and got a shot on me while I was shooting someone else.

Lets assume russian tanks didn’t have bad depression and could play here, they still don’t accelerate as fast to get into a firing posistion, their vertical targeting is bad so if you aren’t preaimed that’s even more time to shoot added on top, and then you are stuck reverse 4 or 11kmph back into cover. That might add anywhere from 2-4 seconds out of the open longer spent exposed. Thats a a lot of scenarios where you shoot the guy and then exposed just long enough to get 3rd partied where you would have lived in a leopard.

Spoiler

You can also look at some of the posts here: The Second WTCS Major is Here: Register Now for the Qualification Stage! - #4 by Edde248

People asking why things like the 2a7 is banned from tournement play but the t90/bvm aren’t, and the fact that most people don’t even bother touching them anyways. To get some kind of idea of how these tanks fall apart in higher level play.

And they suck in game too for the most part, the only bias is gaijin subtly trying to claim they are 12.0 or whatever material putting them alongside superior NATO equipment both in game and irl. The only vehicles that actually perform are light tanks, and thats because the gameplay here just favors light tank in general, scout drones, scouting, airstrike aside. Virtually all the vehicles that get the most hate are light tanks, 2s38, xm800t, wasn’t the puma at 8.3 at one point, etc.

And maybe suck is too strong of a word, im not advocating for any of them to go down and even if they could .3 is about the best you could hope for in this compressed mm. I dont have any delusions that the t90 or bvm should be 11.0 or something, just compared to the other stuff at 12.0 they are frustrating to play sometimes.

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26

Please take your schizo statements elsewhere. Want me to start naming overpowered US and German vehicles?

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27

do it, i bet i can name more russian ones.

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28

The point hes trying to make is the devs aren’t making a propaganda peice for the russian military and all the big 3 suffer and benefit, maybe to slightly different degrees and areas but 1 nation isn’t just held up above the rest.

You can bring up irl performance but it will just turn into arguing that western nations haven’t fought in a war like ukraine for over 50 years and their statistics are bloated by fighting 3rd worlders with outdated soviet surplus. And then if NATO vehicles are performing the same or badly its because its old models or drones etc. etc. are being used.

2 Likes
29

Pfff, you should look into the history of gaijin and the peopel behind that company. Also, yes, NATO stuff is superior and always was, the russians never made anything good. Just look at Ukraine, NATO sends over some stockpiles and leftovers and suddenly russia loses its whole military trying to invade a country a hundred of its size.

And it was always like this. Since russia came into excistence, splintering off from the mongolian empire, it was the definition of inhumanity and failure.
Seriously, the only reason why this country still excists is because they can just burn ressources and people on mass, not to mention that nobody wants there land. Like who wants sibiria.
This was also the only reason why NATO was concerned about the Soviet Union. Mass.

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30

btw just played few german top tier battles, the turret basket nerf is absolutely horrendous and it basically rules out any form of survival when getting hit once. Gj gaijin with this complete made up nerf :)

31

Are you gonna answer? why does Russia have one of the better winrates as a major nation? The turrest basket is getting me killed every battle, meanwhile the russians are tanking hits.

32

Before the update they had the best spaa, and CAS. Important thing here is while something like the typhoon or rafale is better CAS in the hands of like a 1% player, they were awful in the hands of pretty much everyone else, the kh38mt slingers had a rock bottom skill floor and huge payout, it was braindead easy free kills. Pantsir was OP when it released, but powercrept pretty hard overtime, yet still remained the best spaa in game which says a lot about the state of things before this update and played even more into CAS being a big factor in match outcome.

Using winrate is a bit of weird stat, game isnt compeititive and has no expectation on player engagement in a match and you can leave anytime. You get random team mates, and a good chunk of matches are literally just decided by who has more 1 death leavers, I dont have stats for it, but expierence tells me USA is just FULL of 1 death leavers in clickbaits, not sure why the same isnt true for RU/GER 11.7 premiums or at least to the same degree. RDF finally going on sale might do a lot to help US.

For a better stat you can look at kda per vehicle, where germany reigns supreme 2a7 beating out everyone else in the big 3 by good margins.

As for turret basket I think you are just prescribing something to vent frustration into. I seriously doubt you are dying every match to turret ring disabling gun where before the same shot wouldnt. Russian tanks dont magically bounce shots more than others, and most players would rather blame something else than themselves for taking poor shots, panic shooting etc. I do it all the time as well so its not im saying im some pro player, but I can at least identify when my shots are bad, but ya that means most games im kicking myself in the teeth which I guess for most people wouldnt be fun.

My expierence with being shot in either tank is like 90% bounce, breach, or instant death. Its very rare to be penetrated and have your gun alive before or after the update. People also tend to remember rare things happening more often or vividly, i can still remember the last time I got robbed by an abrams lfp shot and died, but 8/10 it works fine I just dont place any weight on these. And going for lfp on abrams is usually by definition a bad shot when their turret neck is how it is, thats just me thinking right or wrong I have to shoot asap and my muscle memory is lfp, works out awfully when i do against merkava.

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33

I agree with your general approach and thinking, but my experience is just little bit different.
First of all, I dont particulary believe that russian tanks are magically bouncing shots. I mean they do, from time to time, but I would agree that it happens to every tank. I, today, didnt pen the lfp of type90.
But the truth is, that the front weakspots on russian tanks are just smaller. you have quite small and steeply angled LFP, and then you have driver port. These are two and only ways to one tap russian tank from the front.
The problem with this for me is, that sometimes your aim sucks and in these situations, its better to play against western MBT (apart from the Leo2a7 and the strv) because all the other Leopards and other tanks are just not gonna stop sabot coming to their center of mass. I started playing with the german top tier few days ago and my first two days were amazing, I even got a nuke with it.
The problem for me started yesterday where I got like the worst series of battles of my live. I have 1500 average score in ground battles, so I usually aim to that to improve my average score, and I had like 7 battles in a row where it was always 500 score, 700 score, sometimes 1000, but never that high to be happy.
And yes, my aim was terrible in these battles, I felt like having a parkinson or something because I wasnt hitting anything good. so Partially some kind of frustration came into play, since Until I was doing good, I didnt even think about some turret basket, I was just playing and it worked.
I hopefully get to the point very soon, dont worry.
Yesterday, I swear to god, every shot that went through my hull was combination of either engine - turret basket, or driver - turret basket. So I couldnt move, I couldnt shoot back. Also I feel like I was unlucky as hell since usually if anything could have gone wrong, it usually went wrong, so I for example met a 2S25, shot first, the shot went through his turret without damaging anything, and he killed my driver+ destroyed my turret basket. I just think that this new addition of turret basket completely buried any hope or chance to fight back even if the enemy aimed his shot poorly.
On the other hand, I also played handful of battles with the russians, and just today I rushed a point, met two guys from the front and one was behind me, and I was able to kill and critically damage two of them. They hit me like 4 or 5 times before killing me, and I was still able to shoot back. This would simply never happen with the Leo with this nerf. It happens quite often with the T series.