Gaijin and modern NATO armor

Machinery of War Discussion Ground Vehicle
777

Yeah ,yeah A+ for being consumed by the exuberance of your own verbosity there,very impressive ,its what we call filibustering in the UK or Bullshit if you want the Army version.Like I said answer the question.
How do you know what the latest and greatest Russian kit does to US armour from the ranges we have in the game.
I could say let’s extend that to real life but this is not the UK Army or US Marine forum its a game forum so lets stick to the game.

I don’t know what a Challenger Tank does when hit by a T90 from 400m as they were none in my operation. If you have a different experience then go for it.

If you have an answer I’m all ears otherwise I presume you have nothing and we’ll ride with that.
Not trying to be an asshole just want a better game.
The floor is yours.

779

If we go by most common tank to most common tank wouldn’t it be v2? Points still stands though

780

You have to remember you are talking 80s tanks vs 80s tanks in many cases .You are also talking in many cases classified info resulting in guess work.

But how does that relate to the game ? You are talking mixed eras,BR and Mixed nations not to mention a sky full of CAS of the same mix.

Like I said to Conte find me a serviceman who lived a battle like WT top tier.
I don’t care how well protected a 80s Russian tank is when it fires its gun at a target at relatively close range.That gun could be mounted on a set of wheels like a static gun or mounted on a donkey.Its going to make a mess of an M1 from the same era.

There is no way I can make my service mean anything in this game other than maybe using gentle slopes in a way some gamers may have missed. I am wondering what experience people are using when they try to apply real life to War thunder at high/top tier.

781

At least they manage to ditch / upgrade majority of T-72A which i think there are more than 10k+ tanks during Soviet cold war era.
I bet there still a bunch of them sitting in storage.

much like OG Abrams

782

No one is saying otherwise.

If you were flagged, there’s a high chance you did something that deserved a flag. You can also just edit your post to remove the flag.

784

Here’s a question,

As it is known that Chobham, that formed the basis of the first generation of US NERA Developments includes a Plastic strike face & backing layer, and the limited cross-sections we do have of the M1’s arrays don’t delineate between Non-Conventional, Conventional, and Homogeneous armor and said description is broad enough to include plastics.

Would it be a fair assumption to make that it is likely that The “Basic” M1’s Array’s(at very least, as it is specified in the document that the M1A1 uses a different configuration) also contain a similar layer.

Relevant excerpts

Chobham Type 1
Chobham Type 11600×475 79.3 KB

Chobham Type 2
Chobham Type 21600×1063 182 KB

M1_Abrams_Hull_Front_Special_Armor

Also is it just me or does the quality of the scans, and the reference [PDF page #12]
to the “Tri-plate” (?Three element? ) assembly mentioned in the definition of the Special armor make it look like the middle layer of the composite element that forms each layer is encapsulated, potentially the same way they are as outlined in the Chobham excerpts, which is known to be an unspecified plastic.

I’d report this but using Gaijin’s definition of a spall liner, it doesn’t count.

First up, let’s take a look at what the spall liner is in reality. The spall liner is part of the structural protection of an armored combat vehicle, designed to reduce the damaging effect in the main compartment once a tank is penetrated. To do this, liners are attached inside of the main compartment. Material such as fabrics made from aramid fiber are most often used, but other materials are also used occasionally too.

In the game, the effect of a spall liner is implemented as follows: inside the main fighting compartment, directly after the main portion of a tank’s armor, a module is present that imitates spall liner material.

This is in the sense the issue, where it probably wouldn’t count due to the definition they are using itself, since in effect The Strikeface / Backface encapsulation of the Plate element in the armor would cause some reduction to Spall generation, due to how shock gets transmitted though a dissimilar boundary layer(s).

And I think it would be somewhat more realistic of a measure then simply turning secondary shatters off for the array(s) in question.

To some degree the Pyrophoric properties of DU projectiles would counter these developments due to the Incendiary after armor effect(s), but is a mechanic that is still awaiting implementation.

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785

This thread is full to the brim with people arguing that Russian equipment is good/better. It is those people I am addressing.

Not true. I have had several posts reinstated after mods looked at them without changes. There is a cabal of Pro Russia people on this server who mass complain about posts that aggressively deride Russian equipment.

The composition and effectiveness of any Abrams armor is either sensitive (controlled but not technically classified) or classified.

The only thing I can say is that nobody without access really knows anything.

1 Like
787

Well the Russian might considering they could take a look at whatever Export grade packages were fitted to the handful of recovered M1’s they have, not that it probably reflects all to closely the contemporary arrays, but whatever was installed probably reflects some existing configuration due to the speed of their deployment to Ukraine and the limits to what would be spent on any such program (I can’t image that the design and proofing of an Array configuration to be cheap or particularly quick).

Though there may be volatile components that won’t survive the hull burning up the same way the T-XX series’ Bakelite layers pyrolyze near completely and so are not present on many damaged hulls.

(The below is an M1150, and is likely not representative of the M1A1-SA sent to Ukrane)

Abrams-Ukraine
Abrams-Ukraine1260×709 192 KB

I don’t really know what would happen if they ever released details publicly. Though I don’t think whatever department that is responsible would make too much noise or really be able to contain any such release to any significant degree, and so probably wouldn’t acknowledge it at all even if it was a full bill of materials & performance report.

It may be somewhat interesting if they ever get around to producing a Clean sheet tank design to see which way they go with the underlying Composite armor, though considering their focus on Reduced weight above all else, advanced (multi-hit )ERA packages are probably more likely.

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788

I can guarantee you would find it fascinating.

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789

It is not, I created it.

‘‘Before 2022 everyone thought they were 7ft tall, now everyone thinks they’re 5ft tall. In the meantime they’ve always been 6ft tall’’.

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790

Don’t ruin his echo chamber, abrams is the best just cause

792

Which tank has a better combat record over the last 35 years?

None.

Not even close.

Based on what? Seriously, which site has that detailed a breakdown. I would love to see it.

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793

Well, to be fair, modern Western tanks haven’t had the chance to face their actual redfor counterparts.

In the Middle East wars the Abrams had an excellent record on, their only tank rivals were T-55s and T-62s, being the most formidable opponents early T-72s from the early 1970s armed with 1960s-spec 3BM9s; basically, the “hydrogen bomb vs coughing baby” meme.

I think that the Abrams is an excellent platform, much like the Leopard and other Western contemporaries, and definitely superior to the redfor counterparts by a large margin (in real life); but I don’t think the combat record says much, since they weren’t fighting their actual counterparts, but rather, the counterparts of their predecessors.

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794

Oryx.

I compiled the total data into the chart as a rough picture of the types/distribution of vehicles Russia uses.
Obviously it will be subject to error given that not all losses are visually identified, some vehicle types may be more vulnerable than others, some types might be used by better units, some vehicle types might’ve been more prevalent in certain costly offensives, etc.

But I still like to use it mainly to challenge those who say the Russian army uses primarily modern vehicles.

The chart includes data from the 13th of may 2024.

795

Sure, but given the glaring weaknesses of the T-72/90 and T-80 there really is no way to meaningfully improve their protection (not I don’t say armor). Furthermore, they have received no meaningful upgrades to their mobility and they remain as outclassed in this fashion as they did 40 years ago.

However, given the Abrams performance in counter-insurgency in Iraq and Afghanistan the more subtle differences between the Abrams and the Challenger/Leopard gave them real advantages over their Western European contemporaries.

The Abrams has things like better durability, easier maintenance and a better ammunition setup that make it markedly better in COIN environments.

I know I am biased, but when working with the Canadians their issues with the Leopard II in Afghanistan I found, for many of the issues, to be less of an issue for the Abrams. The biggest advantage the Leo II had was in fuel economy. And that is not insignificant, but a wash with a proper logistical setup.

796

He expects he will face mig 21/su7 and t55s in his f15 and abrams. Many such cases in the american main playerbase

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797

You still avoid the question regarding your experiences in the US military which replicate this game at top tier.The fact you went all out to avoid the issue says it all.
What historical war situation saw the M1 in anything other than a Turkey shoot?

People on here will cite Ukraine M1 losses as an example of M1s facing Russian tech and being destroyed and we know what answer to expect.Same as M1 losses in foreign hands in the Middle East.

That expected answer will set me up to ask again ? What war did M1 USA crewed tanks face equivalent Russian at the ranges we play at in War Thunder?
Then there is the issue of protection from enemy CAS in reality and in game.

If your point is simply that the M1 turret ring issue is a joke or the M1 being weak in the game then that is about a kid at Gaijin jumping in to tweak it ,not some stupid idea of all things American offering God like protection just because you bounced a couple of RPGs in Afghan

.

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798

Just in case, I’ll do it xD: most Western tank casualties in Ukraine have been to FPV drones, mines, C*S and artillery, rather than direct tank engagements; so just like the Middle Eastern wars’ great performance isn’t a fair positive combat record, neither is the casualties on this conflict a fair negative combat record.

I mean, asking for armor fixes isn’t asking for God like protection.

But yes, the turret ring being a flat 50mm plate is extremely wrong, as it should be 220-280mm worth of volumetric armor even according to the game’s own modelling; and SEP and SEPv2 are still missing their improved turret armor (I’m not even going to talk about hulls anymore), and the fuel tank bulkhead geometries (missing top and side plates) and thicknesses (missing 1/3rd of their thickness) is still wrong too.

All issues that were reported and “accepted” long ago and which still haven’t been fixed or even addressed.

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799

Uh. You do realize this justifies my point? The tank battles they have been part of weren’t more than a systematic slaughter by the Abrams.

Well, I’m not serving in Ukraine and cannot therefore say I have done it.

What I can say is that unlike anyone else discussing this topic here I have actually served on one of the tanks discussed. I was also in combat on the M1A1 HC in Iraq many times. I could also go on about being an armored combat professional with a broader and better understanding of all of the factors at play, but I don’t believe you are the type to accept what professionals say if it conflicts with your personal views.

Finally, as an actual Historian the historical record of the Abrams and Russian T-series tanks is quite conclusive. Everything from Desert Storm to Chechnya to OIF/OEF to Ukraine paints the Abrams as explicitly qualitatively superior to Russian equipment. Furthermore, the dominance of Israel of the Arab nations for the last 70+ years is relevant and conclusive about the inferiority of Russian equipment in general.

It’s actually vastly more complex than that. I have always maintained, since the first post, that nothing in this game at top tier is remotely realistic. It has a whiff of legitimate authenticity, but realism plays no real part in what goes on at the tier.

  1. Gaijin doesn’t have any data for western tanks on actual protection values except for the Chally 1.
  2. Gaijin doesn’t have any data for the same western tanks on armor composition or defeat mechanisms.
  3. Gaijin doesn’t use real ammunition data, it is all Demarre which is a poor analogue for anything other than a game.
  4. Engagement ranges in War Thunder are, the overwhelming majority of the time, ludicrously short in any real world context.
  5. Gaijin does not simulate fire control systems.
  6. Gaijin does not model the accuracy of any of the ammunition used.
  7. Gaijin does not model boresighting tolerances or weather.
  8. Gaijin does not model anything for gun accuracy other than some round to round dispersion based only on the barrel used and, again, with limited or missing data.

This is far more complex than armor values.

The point of my post is not to say Gaijin does not accurately portray tanks. That is a given. The point is that they clearly make Russian equipment better than IRL and NATO worse than IRL and in that sense all arguments about “data” needed to make changes is just a lie on Gaijin’s part. The changes should be made to affect balance in the game. And right now the game overly punishes the Abrams to the point that the win rate of the USA from 10.0 to 12.0 is the worst in game, by a lot. (WT Data project and Thunderskill numbers)

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802

I don’t understand those picture, can you explain?

What red/green does? Protect or penetration?

What are those tabs? mm RHA (of armor or penetration)
% of ?

Thank you.