FV4030/3 Shir 2 Needs To Be Moved Up

[Necrons31467]

@TPS_Hydra

At what instance is the world perfectly flat

It doesn’t have to be.
It’s all explained with very basic maths in the chart, if you’re not interested in reading that chart then I can’t help you from continuing to misinform yourself by mis-using the tool.

@TPS_Hydra

even in-game majority of the time you’re shooting down

@TPS_Hydra

L23A1 was capable of handling the T-64B and in come instances

Please show it.

Hop on over to the eastern side of the Cargo Port map and then fire at a T-64B at 300 metres distance (being extremely generous with that distance, 300m is well below the average engagement distance) and then show me the results.

None of this is particularly necessary since L23A1 has 396mm of penetration whilst the T-64B has in excess of 400mm of armour, but I get the distinct feeling you won’t be convinced by that.

@TPS_Hydra

I don’t know how angle and this diagram disproves the effectiveness of L23A1 compared to L23 lmao.

I don’t know what gave you the impression that was ever something I claimed.

I’m merely informing you that you’re not using the Armour Analysis tool correctly, and that if you continue to do so you’ll keep getting skewed results and thus misinforming yourself.

[TPS_Hydra]

None of this is particularly necessary since L23A1 has 396mm of penetration whilst the T-64B has in excess of 400mm of armour, but I get the distinct feeling you won’t be convinced by that

Equivalent protection, this equivalent protection can change depending on what type of munition you have selected, the equivalent protection increases on the T-64B when you select L23 but decreases when you select L23A1.

If you decided to carefully read my original message than you’d see the part where I said “L23A1 can/does penetrate the T-64Bs UFP”, I used this wording as there will indeed be instances where L23A1 will be capable of penetrating the UFP of a T-64B.

Did I ever say L23A1 would be capable of reliably doing so? Never lmao - the image I provided was also at 0 metres, this video I also linked is close to 0 metres (and shock, shock, horror, it penetrates like I said).

Video

L23A1 Test On T-64B - Clipped with Medal.tv

I only used the T-64B as a basis to show that L23A1 does indeed make a significant difference when compared to L23, something you funnily enough denied - stop focusing on the T-64B but the L23A1 in hand and the performance difference.

And as a reminder, this topic is about the FV4030/3 overperforming - which it absolutely is

[Necrons31467]

@TPS_Hydra

Equivalent protection, […]

Not sure why you’re explaining things that I already know.

@TPS_Hydra

“L23A1 can penetrate the T-64B”, I used this wording as there will indeed be instances where L23A1 will be capable of penetrating the UFP of a T-64B.

By that definition I could say there are instances where a US 76mm from a M10 GMC can penetrate the UFP of a Panther.

It’s just twisting your original statement to suit a definition that nobody aside from you in this very specific instance uses.

Here’s what you said: ‘’ And yes, the L23A1 does penetrate the UFP of the T-64B even though it shows that penetration may not be possible ‘’

You claimed the in-game Armour Analysis tool is showing incorrect results. You claimed that in reality L23A1 can penetrate the T-64B even though the Analysis tool claims it may not be possible.
I then explained to you that you’re not using the tool correctly by using a poor camera angle/placement, which you then denied by saying I was not taking into account the height differences of vehicles: ‘’ even in-game majority of the time you’re shooting down towards a UFP and especially when you’re playing a much taller vehicle such as the FV4030/3. ‘’

Followed by:

@TPS_Hydra

Video

You then performed the tests which I asked you to perform, you noticed I was 100% correct and L23A1 cannot penetrate the UFP at any distance save for literally point blank range and firing downwards into it (and that’s conveniently without Kontakt-1 installed as well). You then move the goalpost to a definition that nobody uses.

Like I said, the Armour Analysis tool doesn’t lie, you were just using a poor camera angle. That’s all this is.

I hope we’ve cleared this up now.

@TPS_Hydra

L23A1 does indeed make a significant difference when compared to L23, something you funnily enough denied

Qoute me where I denied this.

[TPS_Hydra]

You then performed the tests which I asked you to perform, you noticed I was 100% correct and L23A1 cannot penetrate the UFP at any distance save for literally point blank range and firing downwards into it (and that’s conveniently without Kontakt-1 installed as well) . You then move the goalpost to a definition that nobody uses

You’re actually hilarious, I used both the T-64B in protection analysis in my original test for L23A1 and today in the video I provided, I never mentioned the T-64BV (designation for the T-64B with Kontakt-1).

I also talked about the Challenger 1s height being a factor for testing at close ranges as it’s significantly taller than the T-64B, this was demonstrated in said video which you irrationally dismissed.

Thirdly, the angle in which was used in protection analysis would represent the angle used in-game from close ranges, this was showcased in the video I provided. Nothing about this was wrong, you posted a irrelevant diagram which I did indeed thoroughly read but according to you, I didn’t.

You claimed the in-game Armour Analysis tool is showing incorrect results. You claimed that in reality L23A1 can penetrate the T-64B even though the Analysis tool claims it may not be possible

No, I said that even though it showcases penetration may or may not be possible, penetration can still be achieved. If you’re going to misquote me, make it subtle at least.

Qoute me where I denied this

You’re fighting tooth and nail to deny something which isn’t even important to the conversation, my point is that the L23A1 can indeed penetrate the T-64B, I tested this initially in protection analysis at 0 metres and you say the angle is wrong, I test this in-game then you say “that’s conveniently without Kontakt-1” and you continue to deny the most obvious of things.

You’re just arguing for the sake of arguing, you refuse to be wrong and want to drag this conversation out, none of this subtracts from the fact that L23A1 is a big step from L23, keep on fighting for nothing ig.

[BeautifulTai_wan]

Shir is a royal pain to deal with in the already pretty bad 9.7 and 9.3 BR french lineup, an uptier with small buffs is perfectly reasonable.

Brit mains coped about the Centurion mk3 going up to 7.7 BR when it used to be 6.7 but it’s still incredibly strong there. The Shir will still be strong at 10.0 or 10.3 BR.

[Necrons31467]

@TPS_Hydra

I never mentioned the T-64BV (designation for the T-64B with Kontakt-1).

T-64B is the name of the vehicle regardless of whether or not Kontakt-1 is installed in War Thunder, hence why that name can be applied to both versions.

@TPS_Hydra

which I did indeed thoroughly read but according to you, I didn’t.

Then there was no need to bring up the ‘‘One vehicle is taller than the other’’ argument as that is already addressed in the chart.

The height differences between vehicles are completely negligible in the outcome of whether or not a penetration can be achieved.

@TPS_Hydra

No, I said that even though it showcases penetration may or may not be possible, penetration can still be achieved. If you’re going to misquote me, make it subtle at least.

No, you’ve just invented a completely arbitrary situation in which L23A1 achieves a penetration which you claimed it was capable of.
Nobody in War Thunder fights consistently at 5 metres distance from eachother, it’s utterly meaningless.

L23A1 is superior to L23, but claiming that L23A1 is suddenly capable of penetration a T-64B is simply false, and a poorly placed camera angle in the Armour Analysis tool doesn’t help prove that.

@TPS_Hydra

You’re fighting tooth and nail to deny […] bla bla bla

In other words: You couldn’t find a qoute.
Next time don’t accuse people of making arguments they never actually made.

I’ll leave it here as I don’t have any interest in going in circles over and over again for the next 3 days.

[Morvran]

Because being 10.3 with L23A1 would make it a Challenger Mk2 with no TVD or dozer blade , which is a moderate nerf for it. 10.0 with L23A1 would be reasonable but any higher and it’s kinda pointless to use other than as a weaker backup to the MK2.

It also seems to have the same ahistorical ready rack, which is more of a nerf than you would think

10.0 would actually make it stronger because we have a 10.0 line-up, although fairly minimal.

The reason why “Brit mains” are fearing it is because we always get nerfs. Object 292 was and still is an incredibly powerful event tank that has yet to get a single BR increase outside of the decompress. But whenever Britain gets a good vehicle, it is nerfed harshly and never given any buffs. The fear is that it would end up at 10.3 but get no buffs like a new shell and be relegated to the pile of useless vehicles added to the tree

[Necrons31467]

@Morvran_

The reason why “Brit mains” are fearing it is because we always get nerfs.

The curse of your tech tree having decent and competent players.

Japan Air RB players know the feeling…

[Morvran]

Yep, player stats is likely the reason why the Tornado Gr1 and F4J(UK) are higher than most despite being weaker than the equivalent aircraft

[TPS_Hydra]

10.0 with L23A1 would be reasonable

Congrats, literally what I’m trying to say but apparently no, the FV4030/3 would be cheeks at 10.0 with L23A1. The best option would definitely be removing L23 and correcting the ahistorical performance of L15A5.

[Morvran]

Yep and I would have no issue with that. Though I would personally frame the argument more along the lines of

“There is a stronger line-up of existing vehicles at 10.0 that the FV4030/3 could be used alongside, with only one other 9.7 and that being a premium and the L23A1 equipped Shir 2 could be of more use in an uptiered line-up than it is now with L23 to augment a 10.3 line-up with an additional MBT”

Rather than

“Its too good at 9.7 and needs to be moved up but then given a buff to compensate”

becauase that argument kinda falls apart if it needs a buff to move up.

[TPS_Hydra]

T-64B is the name of the vehicle regardless of whether or not Kontakt-1 is installed in War Thunder, hence why that name can be applied to both versions

I’m very clear and specific with what I type, you’ve continuously keep reading my messages wrong and that isn’t my fault but you the reader. The game itself has the Kontakt-1 modification labelled as “T-64BV”.

You do realise that Kontakt-1 doesn’t provide that much protection from kinetic penetrators? Even with Kontakt-1 installed the difference would be minimal - and calling a T-64BV a T-64B is entirely incorrect, I’d expect someone like you to know this if you’re so passionate about arguing with me.

T-64BV Modification

Then there was no need to bring up the ‘‘One vehicle is taller than the other’’ argument as that is already addressed in the chart, the height differences between vehicles are completely negligible

The chart doesn’t cover all scenarios and therefor can’t be applied here, that’s why I mentioned height as a factor since my original and later tests were done at 0 to 50 metres. The height difference at these ranges are NOT negligible but actually a pretty decent factor - it’s like saying the angle of the plate shouldn’t be taken into consideration and tests should be done at a flat angle.

No, you’ve just invented a completely arbitrary situation in which L23A1 achieves a penetration which you claimed it was capable of

It was a example of the penetrating power of the L23A1, it being a realistic scenario doesn’t matter as all I’m displaying is the significant difference between L23 and L23A1. You keep avoiding the fact that I used the T-64B as an example, you narrow into “critical” areas and attempt to use that as a way to dismantle arguments - not a very good method.

Why is it so hard to not focus on the T-64B but the L23A1 in hand? Do you or do you not agree that the L23A1 is better than the L23? If you agree, don’t argue with me - if you chose the latter, you’re just wrong lmao.

I’ll leave it here as I don’t have any interest in going in circles over and over again for the next 3 days

Very wise and intelligent dodge, good for you!

[BeautifulTai_wan]

@Morvran_

Because being 10.3 with L23A1 would make it a Challenger Mk2 with no TVD or dozer blade , which is a moderate nerf for it.

Trades a little LFP armor and the luxury of a 10.3 / 10.0 TI for better speed, that’s reasonable.

Even just limited to L15A3/A5 as they are now the Shir is still significantly better than most 9.7 BR MBTs. 5s reload for your first engagement and enough armor to stop early darts is much better than the comparable 9.7 BR tanks.

T-64B has ERA, penetration and comparable turret armor, but it’s losing in reload and gun handling. AMX-40 literally has speed and the coax as the sole hard advantages. Thermals are nice but ultimately a luxury item when they’re not the standard at the BR (above 10.7)
9.3 BR tanks have it worse.

@Morvran_

The reason why “Brit mains” are fearing it is because we always get nerfs.

That ain’t special for the UK. France gets things added pre-nerfed and then gets them uptiered again. Italy gets things in basically the same state. Nobody aside from the Big 3 and Sweden ever get to have nice things forever.

Yes, Obj 292 (among many many others) should probably be higher; but two wrongs don’t make a right.

[Morvran]

@BeautifulTai_wan

Trades a little LFP armor and the luxury of a 10.3 / 10.0 TI for better speed, that’s reasonable.

What better speed? Just purely looking at stat cards they have the exact same speed. (minus the difference in acceleration that come from the CR1 being 2t heavier)

Spoiler

@BeautifulTai_wan

Even just limited to L15A3/A5 as they are now the Shir is still significantly better than most 9.7 BR MBTs. 5s reload for your first engagement and enough armor to stop early darts is much better than the comparable 9.7 BR tanks.

Reload rate on the FV4030 might be too high if it is to remain at 9.7, but Chieftain Mk10 has L23 at 9.0 with 7.5 second reload and isnt an issue. So the shell itself at 9.7 isnt the problem, if anything, for the British TT, its a tad on the weak side by that point.

Given the tiny first stage ammo at the moment, it likely has a longer reload than the Chieftain Mk10 after the first few shots.

Also comparing the FV4030 and Chieftain Mk10s, they arent that far off in terms of protection either I think .

Spoiler

T-64B, 3BM42 @500m

Chieftain has thicker armour but its not composite

The FV4030 basically gives the Chieftain Mk10 slightly better zoom, better mobility and better fire rate, and probably some improvements on survivablity, but doesnt look like an extreme increase to me.

Overall I dont think the FV4030 is actually all that much of an issue at 9.7. That being said. L23A1 and moved to 10.0 would be still be better because we actually have other 10.0 vehicles like the Desert Warrior and Stormer AD

[Morvran]

First match, 2 kills and then got 1 shotted by a TAM. I dont really see the issue personally at 9.7

[BeautifulTai_wan]

@Morvran_

(minus the difference in acceleration that come from the CR1 being 2t heavier

The difference in acceleration and overall offroad performance is pretty significant, you can actually afford to turn in the Shir and get back to decent speed well before a CR1 will. Chieftain is a slug in comparison, with bad engine power and low top speed. Shir can keep up with a half-upgraded wheeled LT offroad, while CR1 can only dream of that.

@Morvran_

Reload rate on the FV4030 might be too high if it is to remain at 9.7, but Chieftain Mk10 has L23 at 9.0 with 7.5 second reload and isnt an issue.

5s reload, even for only three shots is significant for 9.7 BR. That’s barely punishable. 7.5s is very easily punished. Not to mention the overall improved mobility giving you the ability to retreat faster and further reduce the time an enemy can use to punish you.

@Morvran_

Also comparing the FV4030 and Chieftain Mk10s, they arent that far off in terms of protection either I think .

Against HEATFS, lesser ATGMs and lesser darts (T-64B is firing some of the best APFSDS for 9.7 BR) the hull is very resistant, to the point of being oppressive to lower BR opponents. The turret is best in tier, with higher BR ammo being a requirement to penetrate it. Stillbrew is decent, but full of holes and doesn’t cover every area of the front.

@Morvran_

Overall I dont think the FV4030 is actually all that much of an issue at 9.7.

Agree to disagree here, the combination of improvements from the 9.3 upgraded Chieftain on the Shir make it absolutely zero fun to play alongside and painful to play against. They just roll forward with no effort, facerolling enemy teams and leaving little left for friendlies. It fits better at 10.0+, has more lineup there and actually fights decent counters often.

[Morvran]

Well. Trying to spade it now and L15 CANNOT pen a T-64B anywhere and Im always getting one shot… So… Im wondering why its not 9.3 at the moment. Soif it lost L23, it would be 8.7 max.

Yep, doesnt matter where you get hit. You get one shotted. I dont really understand this “its armour is too OP for 9.7” comes from

[Morvran]

@BeautifulTai_wan

Agree to disagree here, the combination of improvements from the 9.3 upgraded Chieftain on the Shir make it absolutely zero fun to play alongside and painful to play against.

Chieftain is 9.0.

@BeautifulTai_wan

They just roll forward with no effort, facerolling enemy teams and leaving little left for friendlies. It fits better at 10.0+, has more lineup there and actually fights decent counters often.

There are multiple 9.7s stronger. Like the T-64B

[БЕИ]

@Morvran_

Well. Trying to spade it now and L15 CANNOT pen a T-64B anywhere and Im always getting one shot… So… Im wondering why its not 9.3 at the moment. Soif it lost L23, it would be 8.7 max.

Yep, doesnt matter where you get hit. You get one shotted. I dont really understand this “its armour is too OP for 9.7” comes from

Hmm? The turret can withstand 3BM42, when you are in a hull-down position you can trade fire with anyone who is aware of your position, so far I only got my barrel shot out and the occasional commander goes to valhalla, the turret so far has yet to die to anything in one-hit yet, most matches are 10.3 and it received the benefit of having great reverse speed to get out of troubles. SO FAR my stat is 44 kills with 16 deaths and I hadn’t score a nuke yet, one time got 7 kills and it was downtier so I think its in a good place at 9.7 but I imagine it will be moved up to 10.0 due to having 5 second reload speed, it has great mobility compare to T-64B and Sabra but lacks the penetration.

[Morvran]

I’ve done 5 matches so far and been one shot every single time. Just don’t aim for the turret cheeks and it’s a guaranteed one shot

If it gets moved to 10.0, it will have to receive L23A1 along with all of its bug fixes (probably should have 20 round ready rack like the CR1s)