FV4030/3 Shir 2 Needs To Be Moved Up

[Morvran]

Yep and I would have no issue with that. Though I would personally frame the argument more along the lines of

“There is a stronger line-up of existing vehicles at 10.0 that the FV4030/3 could be used alongside, with only one other 9.7 and that being a premium and the L23A1 equipped Shir 2 could be of more use in an uptiered line-up than it is now with L23 to augment a 10.3 line-up with an additional MBT”

Rather than

“Its too good at 9.7 and needs to be moved up but then given a buff to compensate”

becauase that argument kinda falls apart if it needs a buff to move up.

[TPS_Hydra]

T-64B is the name of the vehicle regardless of whether or not Kontakt-1 is installed in War Thunder, hence why that name can be applied to both versions

I’m very clear and specific with what I type, you’ve continuously keep reading my messages wrong and that isn’t my fault but you the reader. The game itself has the Kontakt-1 modification labelled as “T-64BV”.

You do realise that Kontakt-1 doesn’t provide that much protection from kinetic penetrators? Even with Kontakt-1 installed the difference would be minimal - and calling a T-64BV a T-64B is entirely incorrect, I’d expect someone like you to know this if you’re so passionate about arguing with me.

T-64BV Modification

Then there was no need to bring up the ‘‘One vehicle is taller than the other’’ argument as that is already addressed in the chart, the height differences between vehicles are completely negligible

The chart doesn’t cover all scenarios and therefor can’t be applied here, that’s why I mentioned height as a factor since my original and later tests were done at 0 to 50 metres. The height difference at these ranges are NOT negligible but actually a pretty decent factor - it’s like saying the angle of the plate shouldn’t be taken into consideration and tests should be done at a flat angle.

No, you’ve just invented a completely arbitrary situation in which L23A1 achieves a penetration which you claimed it was capable of

It was a example of the penetrating power of the L23A1, it being a realistic scenario doesn’t matter as all I’m displaying is the significant difference between L23 and L23A1. You keep avoiding the fact that I used the T-64B as an example, you narrow into “critical” areas and attempt to use that as a way to dismantle arguments - not a very good method.

Why is it so hard to not focus on the T-64B but the L23A1 in hand? Do you or do you not agree that the L23A1 is better than the L23? If you agree, don’t argue with me - if you chose the latter, you’re just wrong lmao.

I’ll leave it here as I don’t have any interest in going in circles over and over again for the next 3 days

Very wise and intelligent dodge, good for you!

[BeautifulTai_wan]

@Morvran

Because being 10.3 with L23A1 would make it a Challenger Mk2 with no TVD or dozer blade , which is a moderate nerf for it.

Trades a little LFP armor and the luxury of a 10.3 / 10.0 TI for better speed, that’s reasonable.

Even just limited to L15A3/A5 as they are now the Shir is still significantly better than most 9.7 BR MBTs. 5s reload for your first engagement and enough armor to stop early darts is much better than the comparable 9.7 BR tanks.

T-64B has ERA, penetration and comparable turret armor, but it’s losing in reload and gun handling. AMX-40 literally has speed and the coax as the sole hard advantages. Thermals are nice but ultimately a luxury item when they’re not the standard at the BR (above 10.7)
9.3 BR tanks have it worse.

@Morvran

The reason why “Brit mains” are fearing it is because we always get nerfs.

That ain’t special for the UK. France gets things added pre-nerfed and then gets them uptiered again. Italy gets things in basically the same state. Nobody aside from the Big 3 and Sweden ever get to have nice things forever.

Yes, Obj 292 (among many many others) should probably be higher; but two wrongs don’t make a right.

[Morvran]

@BeautifulTai_wan

Trades a little LFP armor and the luxury of a 10.3 / 10.0 TI for better speed, that’s reasonable.

What better speed? Just purely looking at stat cards they have the exact same speed. (minus the difference in acceleration that come from the CR1 being 2t heavier)

Spoiler

@BeautifulTai_wan

Even just limited to L15A3/A5 as they are now the Shir is still significantly better than most 9.7 BR MBTs. 5s reload for your first engagement and enough armor to stop early darts is much better than the comparable 9.7 BR tanks.

Reload rate on the FV4030 might be too high if it is to remain at 9.7, but Chieftain Mk10 has L23 at 9.0 with 7.5 second reload and isnt an issue. So the shell itself at 9.7 isnt the problem, if anything, for the British TT, its a tad on the weak side by that point.

Given the tiny first stage ammo at the moment, it likely has a longer reload than the Chieftain Mk10 after the first few shots.

Also comparing the FV4030 and Chieftain Mk10s, they arent that far off in terms of protection either I think .

Spoiler

T-64B, 3BM42 @500m

Chieftain has thicker armour but its not composite

The FV4030 basically gives the Chieftain Mk10 slightly better zoom, better mobility and better fire rate, and probably some improvements on survivablity, but doesnt look like an extreme increase to me.

Overall I dont think the FV4030 is actually all that much of an issue at 9.7. That being said. L23A1 and moved to 10.0 would be still be better because we actually have other 10.0 vehicles like the Desert Warrior and Stormer AD

[Morvran]

First match, 2 kills and then got 1 shotted by a TAM. I dont really see the issue personally at 9.7

[BeautifulTai_wan]

@Morvran

(minus the difference in acceleration that come from the CR1 being 2t heavier

The difference in acceleration and overall offroad performance is pretty significant, you can actually afford to turn in the Shir and get back to decent speed well before a CR1 will. Chieftain is a slug in comparison, with bad engine power and low top speed. Shir can keep up with a half-upgraded wheeled LT offroad, while CR1 can only dream of that.

@Morvran

Reload rate on the FV4030 might be too high if it is to remain at 9.7, but Chieftain Mk10 has L23 at 9.0 with 7.5 second reload and isnt an issue.

5s reload, even for only three shots is significant for 9.7 BR. That’s barely punishable. 7.5s is very easily punished. Not to mention the overall improved mobility giving you the ability to retreat faster and further reduce the time an enemy can use to punish you.

@Morvran

Also comparing the FV4030 and Chieftain Mk10s, they arent that far off in terms of protection either I think .

Against HEATFS, lesser ATGMs and lesser darts (T-64B is firing some of the best APFSDS for 9.7 BR) the hull is very resistant, to the point of being oppressive to lower BR opponents. The turret is best in tier, with higher BR ammo being a requirement to penetrate it. Stillbrew is decent, but full of holes and doesn’t cover every area of the front.

@Morvran

Overall I dont think the FV4030 is actually all that much of an issue at 9.7.

Agree to disagree here, the combination of improvements from the 9.3 upgraded Chieftain on the Shir make it absolutely zero fun to play alongside and painful to play against. They just roll forward with no effort, facerolling enemy teams and leaving little left for friendlies. It fits better at 10.0+, has more lineup there and actually fights decent counters often.

[Morvran]

Well. Trying to spade it now and L15 CANNOT pen a T-64B anywhere and Im always getting one shot… So… Im wondering why its not 9.3 at the moment. Soif it lost L23, it would be 8.7 max.

Yep, doesnt matter where you get hit. You get one shotted. I dont really understand this “its armour is too OP for 9.7” comes from

[Morvran]

@BeautifulTai_wan

Agree to disagree here, the combination of improvements from the 9.3 upgraded Chieftain on the Shir make it absolutely zero fun to play alongside and painful to play against.

Chieftain is 9.0.

@BeautifulTai_wan

They just roll forward with no effort, facerolling enemy teams and leaving little left for friendlies. It fits better at 10.0+, has more lineup there and actually fights decent counters often.

There are multiple 9.7s stronger. Like the T-64B

[БЕИ]

@Morvran

Well. Trying to spade it now and L15 CANNOT pen a T-64B anywhere and Im always getting one shot… So… Im wondering why its not 9.3 at the moment. Soif it lost L23, it would be 8.7 max.

Yep, doesnt matter where you get hit. You get one shotted. I dont really understand this “its armour is too OP for 9.7” comes from

Hmm? The turret can withstand 3BM42, when you are in a hull-down position you can trade fire with anyone who is aware of your position, so far I only got my barrel shot out and the occasional commander goes to valhalla, the turret so far has yet to die to anything in one-hit yet, most matches are 10.3 and it received the benefit of having great reverse speed to get out of troubles. SO FAR my stat is 44 kills with 16 deaths and I hadn’t score a nuke yet, one time got 7 kills and it was downtier so I think its in a good place at 9.7 but I imagine it will be moved up to 10.0 due to having 5 second reload speed, it has great mobility compare to T-64B and Sabra but lacks the penetration.

[Morvran]

I’ve done 5 matches so far and been one shot every single time. Just don’t aim for the turret cheeks and it’s a guaranteed one shot

If it gets moved to 10.0, it will have to receive L23A1 along with all of its bug fixes (probably should have 20 round ready rack like the CR1s)

[БЕИ]

I rather it maintain its current state and stay at 9.7, if we look at the entire lineup as a balancing factor, 9.7 has nothing there and one death then we are down to using 9.3s as backups. But if they gonna move it up, then I think T-64B and Sabra will go to 10.0 too, I will hate that

[Morvran]

That is the entire argument for it getting the necessary buffs to move it up to 10.0. that there is 0 line-up at 9.7. I’m using the chieftain mk10 as my backup because I’ve got nothing else.

If it was 10.0 we’d not be much better off in terms of MBTs but we’d have SPAA and IFVs that weren’t 8.3

[gfdsa_killer]

How the sabra and other versions of m60 are superior? They all have poor armour, whole tank is a weakspot. Also terrible mobility and top speed.

[BeautifulTai_wan]

@Morvran

Chieftain is 9.0.

Referring to the Jordanian Khalid. It’s a lot better than that tank. Same top ammo, but 5s reload, and gets around the battlefield similarly, with much better armor.

[SirinKaslana]

As a Britain main, respectfully, no. Britain finally has a competent MBT below 10.0, yes its an event vehicle, but its needed. You call yourself a Britain main but actively want to have one of the few good things Britain has at Rank 7 to be nerfed? Please hang your keys to your British Main title and go play another tech tree. Shir 2 stays at its BR.

¬Sirin

[MotorolaCRO]

@SirinKaslana

Britain finally has a competent MBT below 10.0, yes its an event vehicle, but its needed.

Olifant at 9.3 existed for quite a while now.

[Ghost_Rider12]

This thing is fine at 9.7 tbh. Unless the thing is in cover you just shoot the lower plate and it dies 100% of the time…

[ZE4L0T]

You couldn’t just give it L23A1. It would have to get thermal too, and at that point it’s basically the Challenger DS. I would rather the vehicle be unique.

[Morvran]

L23A1 and Thermals would be Challenger Mk2 at 10.3 not Chally DS as that has L26.

L23A1 and no thernals would most likely make it 10.0 which might be an overal healthier place for it because L23A1 does okay at 10.3 and 10.0 is an overall healthier line-up.

But its fine either way

[Daffan]

This should be 10.3 easily. It’s overpowered.

@Morvran

There are multiple 9.7s stronger. Like the T-64B

Just lol. Even if the 64B had 1000mm ammo it wouldn’t be half the vehicle.