it says in the post that they prioritize/do it based on AB
Arcade is the most popular game mode by a large margin, so of course they base it off of arcade. I don’t have a working link anymore because the clowns deleted their old forums, but if you search for “how many people play different modes” you might find it somewhere still. A guy dumped all the data from the replay servers for all available replays for a month, and AB Ground was over 4x more popular than RB Ground by number of battles. In Air, it was about 50/50
2 Likes
Sweden:
By grouping Strv 101 and Strv 103A. Then people will miss one of the things that are unique with the Swedish tree. Same with the grouping of Strv 104 and Strv 103C.
Grouping of Strv 104 and 105 is better. 2 similar vehicles. And the BR gap between those vehicles aren’t that high. They are also the same rank.
And would it not be better to group Lvrbv 701 and ASRAD? Since ASRAD is just a Lvrbv 701 with more missiles. At least i don’t see any problem with moving the Lvrbv 701 to Rank 7.
At least i would prefer if the Finnish and Swedish Vampires was grouped. More or less the same vehicles. Main difference is that the Finnish Vamp gets other rockets and 2 bombs.
Don’t see a need to move the Saab T18B’s to rank 3. Unless Gaijin has something ready for that spot.
Japan:
Don’t really see a reason to group Type 87 and Type 89. 2 completely different types of vehicles. Grouping Both Type 87 RCV seems more logical.
Would recommend grouping M19 and M42. 2 very similar vehicles. With almost identical BR’s and capabilities.
GB:
Group Ystervark and Bosvark instead of Ystervark and Crusader AA Mk2.
Move G6 Rhino to rank 5 instead of grouping it with Eland 90 Mk7.
The grouping of Rooikat and Olifant’s aren’t making much sense to me.
Wouldn’t it make more sense to group Olifank Mk.1A and Olifant Mk.2 in one group.
And Rooikat Mk.1D and Rooikat MTTD in one group?
Grouping Warrior and ZT3A2 does not make much sense.
Group Swingfire and Striker instead.
And when you decide to add Rooikat 35 with the same atgm pack as ZT3A2. Then folder those 2.
USSR:
Instead of grouping BMP-2 and Obj 685. Wouldn’t it be more logical to group BMP-2 and BMP-3? 2 similar vehicles.
Ger: Why folder Marder 1 and BMP-1? Why not folder both Marder A1 and 1A3.
And i don’t see a reason for folding BMP-1 and DF105.
Why not group both Gepards and keep both in Rank 6.
Group M48A2 G A2 and M48 Super.
Tiger 2 (P) and Tiger 2 (H) should be foldered. Almost identical.
Same with Tiger H1 and Tiger E. Almost identical. And should be in a group.
Instead of mixing Marder TD with Stugs why not folder Stuh 42/Stug 3 F/Stug 3 G.
And put Marder 3 and 3H before the stugs. But keep them both in rank 2.
Keep Pz 3F and Pz 3J in a group. Folder Flakpanzer and Sd.Kfz 6/2.
US:
Since you are moving M46 to rank 4. Why not group it with M26?
Keep M3 Stuarts grouped.
Group both B-25’s.
Move B-17G-60-VE to rank 3. And group all 3 B-17’s together. Move PB4Y–2 to rank 4 and group it with B-24D-25-CO. Group both F-80’s.
Move F-86F-2 to rank 5 and group it with the other 2 F-86.
Group both F-104’s togheter. Since they are att the same BR.
Italy:
Group F-104S and F-104S.ASA.
3 Likes
That is more due to everyone starting with arcade, if you have ever tried to find a jet game in arcade at 7.0 i can tell you it takes longer than finding a naval game XD
No, it’s not FOUR TIMES more popular simply due to new players. Maybe if it was like 1.1x larger or something, okay. But 4x just from that would imply that like 80% of all daily active users are brand new, which is absurd. A normal game would have < 5% probably of its active users in a day being new. (And then they leave, so they’d stop being counted toward number of matches in the statistics gathered from then on.)
1 Like
the S and ASA are the ONLY rank 7 planes so yeah no I disagree
The more I think about this the more I don’t understand their justification for not foldering vehicles with a BR Gap because ultimately foldered vehicles are gonna be played less and skipped over and we have a efficiency based BR system so what are they gonna do when a vehicle in or on top of a folder moves in BR and the others don’t?
Unfolder them, not move them?
Like the Olifants and Rooikats are two entirely different vehicles with different playstyles that will have different stats, it would not be surprising if one or the other moves in BR while the other stays put.
This stance will fall apart when foldered things inevitably shift around during one of the future BR adjustments, especially after we just had a massive adjustment in relation to late war and cold war vehicles.
5 Likes
I think you seriously underestimate how many people download the game play to about rank 3 then drop off. The churn in this game is real, gaijin even said so during their condescending post that happened in the middle of the review bombing.
a quick gander of the metrics being collected at thunder skill show an ungodly amount of people are playing rb, i know its not the most ideal metric, but its quite indicative that that is what the whales are playing.
1 Like
If the vast majority of players play all the way to Rank 3 (which is not “new” at all) then leave and do NOT go to RB instead, then you’re now just simply agreeing with me. Both of us are describing a game where the large majority of players are AB players for their whole “career”, permanently. So yes then it makes the most sense to sort things by AB, which you’ve just agreed is the main mode. Not by RB which is a minority niche mode. That is what Gaijin is doing here. So… what is your complaint exactly?
1 Like
In the French air tree, all 3 Vautours have been moved to rank 6.
Does this mean they no longer have air spawns? I don’t know if this vehicle will be playable without it’s air spawn. All other nations kept their jet bombers at rank 5.
1 Like
Not really, as stated the whales are the ones playing past that point, if they are capping off at rank III that literally means they are not playing where the majority of these changes are taking place.
Where on earth are you getting the idea that whales play any particular mode or rank versus any other? We have zero data on that, and they could play wherever they want since they can buy premiums without grinding. For all we know most of the biggest whales play 4.0 ground assault mode. We know where most PLAYERS play overall – Arcade ground. We have no clue where whales are one way or another.
3 Likes
The fact its abundantly obvious if you actually play the game, a simple check of who is queueing would tell you that, and if you have ever played in the 9.7 premium deadzone you would see that 90% of the players are in prems XD
You can get a snapshot yourself, here are planes eu
and here again is usa
i know its just a snap shot, but its indicative that more people are playing rd air atleast once you get out of the initial gate, i would do the same with ground but i literally instantly lock into an an rb game XD
1 Like
We have a system here that is trying to accomplish two opposing goals at the same time - it’s simply not going to work and appears confusing.
I would do a massive rethink entirely of the tech tree system. Consider the following problems:
- It is possible to unlock lower BR vehicles after higher BR ones - this makes no sense. It doesn’t represent progression at all.
- Vehicles are being grouped that shouldn’t be grouped. Decide on either BR grouping or Vehicle Similarity grouping. A mix is very confusing to new players
I would propose a reworked system similar to how modifications are unlocked - Researchable Vehicles aren’t tied to progression from vehicles before them but through a certain count of vehicles researched in that Rank. It would probably be challenging to balance for Nations will little amount of vehicles per rank but I feel it would be better than what we have here.
2 Likes
This justification would be fine if not for the fact that two other M4A4s (French and Italian) are identical to the Chinese vehicles, yet are at rank 3.
The same goes for the M113A1 (TOW), the Italian one is Rank VI while the Chinese one is Rank V. Moving the Chinese vehicle up to Rank VI would make a more logical folder with the CM25 (which is at a similar battle rating and first in the research progression).
This lack of unification across ranks creates many logical contradictions when considering the reasoning for some of the changes. It has been clear that the justification for whether or not a vehicle deserves a higher or lower rank is largely dependent upon battle rating. However, there are many instances where this is violated out of convenience or ignored altogether. For example:
Meanwhile, the Chinese M4A1 (75) W, which is also 4.0 in all game modes, remains at Rank III.
Other vehicles which are identical (or functionally identical) that are at different ranks include:
- M36 (Japan) - Rank IV, while both French and US M36B2s are Rank III. The Italian M36B1 is also Rank IV, despite having the same BR and similar performance.
- M36 (China) - Rank IV, while the US M36 is Rank III.
- M24 (Japan, Italy) - Rank III, while the US and Chinese vehicles are at Rank II.
- StuG III G (Italy) - Rank III, while the German version is Rank II.
- T-34 (1943) (China) - Rank III, while the Soviet equivalent is Rank II.
- T-34 (1941) (Finland) - Rank III, while the Soviet equivalent is Rank II.
- Pz. IV J (Finland) - Rank III, while the German equivalent is Rank II.
- M18 GMC (USA) - Rank III, while the Chinese and Italian counterparts are Rank IV.
Which is not an exhaustive list, and also doesn’t factor in some premium vehicles. In most of these cases, a rank change could be made without upsetting the desired “2 vehicles per branch per rank” requirement. The M18 could be move to Rank IV and grouped with the M41A1, while the Finnish T-34/Pz. IV group could move down to Rank II.
While I disagree with the reasoning for some of the changes, I can at least understand them. The lack of a consistent standard when deciding vehicle rank, though, is frustrating.
A few suggestions which I hope are reconsidered
Nimrod Mk. I + Nimrod Mk. II
Folder
Even though this is a relatively inconsequential change, creating a folder would be sensible as the Nimrods are nearly identical, and the Mk. II only blocks progression to the Sea Gladiator.
F-100D (France)
After F-84F → After F-86K
The F-100D is a fighter, not a strike aircraft. The progression would make more sense with the F-100D following the F-86K, and would not adversely affect any of the goals set for the research tree changes.
M19A1 GMC + M42 Duster
Folder
The Duster offers no operational benefit over the M19, it is only an RP sink that prevents progression in the SPAA lines of USA and Japan.
Pz. III E + Pz. III B
Reverse the order
This is a tiny “QoL” change, but making the “research” order be B → E would be more logical as the Ausf. E is the superior of the two.
Panther F
Remove from folder
This would not violate any of the goals for the research restructure. Plus, the Panther F is at a higher BR than the Ausf. A and Ausf. G, and has a noteworthy difference from the previous two models.
Crusader AA Mk. II
Move to Rank II, folder with AEC AA Mk. II
In a similar situation to the M19/M42, the Crusader AA Mk. II offers little meaningful advantage over the AEC AA Mk. II, and its battle rating is still appropriate for Rank II. Researching the Crusader AA does not provide the player with any improvement in AA capability, while the Ystervark remains at a higher BR (except in AB, where the Crusader has a ridiculous 1.0 jump above the AEC despite them being remarkably similar)
AMX 30 B2 + AMX 30 B2 BRENUS
Remove from folder
The folder is unnecessary and does not impede research significantly.
PT-76 (Finland) + Comet Mk. I (Finalnd)
Remove from folder
If the T-34/Pz. IV are moved to Rank II, these can be unfoldered without violating the goals of the research revision. They are extremely dissimilar vehicles.
2 Likes
“A simple check of who is queueing” uh, can you please direct me to where, exactly, in game, it says where WHALES are queuing? Owning a single premium vehicle is not a “whale.” The term usually refers to something along the lines of $5,000 to $10,000 or more lifetime value.
Also, queueing is much much less reliable than replay server game counts for player volumes, because a very popular mode will fire off game faster, so the number of people queueing won’t really go up.
2 Likes
Im wondering how the devs are planning to determine battle rating after the change?
Currently pre update players have to play almost all these vehicles meaning the vehicles have a more even distribution of players of mixed but somewhat experienced skill levels as they progress.
Battle ratings then look at the said vehcles stats based on an average for said vehicle and set or adjust br accordingly.
Post update and as the player base grows to have more and more players who have been able to skip 2 thirds of the vehicles the average players skill and performance will drop. Additionally the newer palyers mostly interested into reaching top tier as fast as possible (the point of the folders) will skip most vehicles in said folders.
The problem here will be the inexperienced, speed grinding palyers will play the first vehicle in the folder and often skip the rest. This will mean the top vehicle will have the most players playing them with the lowest average stats. On the other hand the other foldered vehicles will mostly be played by people who have put in the time, learned how to play having unlocked everything and will have far better stats as they havent been diluted by the speed grinders who just skip them.
So we will now have better vehicles with far worst player stats while worse vehicles will get better player stats. Was anyone around when the devs told us the vampire had to be the higher br because stats showed it was out performing the mig 17? Welcome to the future of war thunder vOv
2 Likes
Even if only like 0.1% of all players ever touch a vehicle as they grind past it, that would still be way more data than you would need to calculate a reliable win rate for that vehicle. I agree though, the ones in the folders will likely have better stats than the top of the folder ones. … Okay so what? That’s correct, that’s what would be needed to balance matches.
Have you played in the upper bracket XD, once you get past a certain point half the people at a minimum on your team are rocking premiums. it goes to effectivly 100% when people want to unlock a new shiny