Kronsthadt by far is the most insane stretch of the words 'laid down, for something that would have not seen the light of day.
At that point I can come up with an insane plan for a vehicle, throw some nuts and bolts on the ground and it qualifies to be put into WT because it was 'laid down.
If it was some filler vehicle that’s one thing rather than one of the main pieces.
The Kronshtadt was laid down, though. I’m not sure how that’s a stretch when it literally was. The Z 46 and the Z 47 were similarly never launched out of their drydock, though they were more complete by the time the war ended. Then there’s the Type 5 which wasn’t ever built at all.
It would never get finished however, they clearly were not capable of doing so, unlike the Germans where a lot of their unfinished vehicles are due to losing the war, not a lack of capabilities and know how.
The German fleet is clear proof of what they were capable of, the Z46 and Z47 definitely weren’t something crazy and just improvements over the A and B versions.
With the Kronshtadt the Soviets were casually going to build something far greater than they ever have and just make it ‘superior to the Scharnhorst-class and outrun the Bismarck-class’ with some insane specs.
The Soviets didn’t have a lack of a capability to finish the Kronshtadt, they just didn’t have the resources to spare for them. By the time they did, the designs were outdated and they had better ones in the works, not to mention that resources were being siphoned from the incomplete hulk in order to aid with the defense of Leningrad which made it even less complete by the time the war ended than it had been before it started.
You can’t just excuse the Germans not completing the Z 46 and the Z 47 due to the end of the war and completely ignore the actual reasons that neither the Kronshtadt nor the Sevastopol’ were completed, and their incapability to do so being the least of the reasons for it.
Everything suggests they bit off more than they could chew with this, they just wanted to get a ship that’s better than all the others without being able to built it.
The armor plates, the turbines, the turrets… supply issues were only the start of their issues.
The difference like I already said is that the Z46 and Z47 weren’t special, they made the A and B versions and these were just a small upgrade to existing ones… entirely different from building the Krohnstadt when there is zero proof they even remotely had these capabilities to do so, and the Z47 is also just a random filler in the German tree and not the crown jewel.
They could build it, though. That’s why construction on it was even started. They only stopped construction because they had a little issue of a nearly 2.5-year long siege of the city they were building it in. They had enough difficulty feeding Leningrad, they had much less the capability to construct a battlecruiser too. By the time they did have the capability, the design was outdated and it wasn’t seen as worthwhile to convert the hulk into an aircraft carrier or something auxiliary, so it was scrapped.
The difference like I already said is that the Z46 and Z47 weren’t special, they made the A and B versions and these were just a small upgrade to existing ones… entirely different from building the Krohnstadt when there is zero proof they even remotely had these capabilities to do so, and the Z47 is also just a random filler in the German tree and not the crown jewel.
It doesn’t matter. The rule exception exists specifically because some countries otherwise don’t have the ships necessary to have a top rank. This includes Russia, but also theoretically Sweden, China, and Israel when a navy is added for them, along with most probable minor nations that could still be added. Despite that, Germany still has the SMS Sachsen, a ship laid down in 1914, launched in 1916, and then scrapped in 1921 without ever having been completed; and Italy still has the RN Conte di Cavour which is in its planned fitting that never got completed due to Italy not having the resources to spare for it. The latter forms apart of Italy’s top rank and was added for the exact same reasons as the Kronshtadt and wasn’t ever completed for the same reasons as the Kronshtadt, but it isn’t ever focused on.
They could build it, though. That’s why construction on it was even started.
Yeah, because the Soviets, like the Germans were oh so grounded in reality, just like they are today.
The utopian vision of an industrial giant that would provide the army of the World Pro-
letariat with an iron fist had instilled pride and megalomania among Soviet leaders.
Under Stalin’s direct inspiration and involvement, plans for creating a huge ocean-
going navy—bolshoi okeanskii flot—took shape.
Something about dictators and megalomania I guess, everything indicates that it was nothing more than that, Stalin wanted to big ships to compensate, he thought his diplomates were not taken seriously because they didn’t have big naval guns behind them… like Americans who feel the need to drive the biggest trucks, Stalin wanted the biggest ships.
By the draft plan of August 1939 the number of combat vessels had grown to 699, over 2.5 mil-
lion tons, in addition to several hundreds of auxiliary vessels totaling almost half a
million additional tons
Well if they had planned it, it must have been possible, planning to not only destroy the Japanese fleet and German fleet, but also the the Swedish, Finnish fleet, the Italian, Romanian, Bulgarian and Turkish fleet… surely realistic as we all known the amazing track record of the Soviets in naval warfare, shortly after the Battle of Tsushima, the only decisive engagement ever fought between modern steel fleets, and spoiler, the Soviets didn’t do so well.
Tl:dr https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yzGqp3R4Mx4
Russian naval historians are in little doubt that even had Soviet involvement in
the Second World War been somehow avoided—not that it could have been,
they are convinced, Hitler being determined to attack the USSR—the targets set
out in Stalin’s big-fleet program were unrealistic and could never have been ful-
filled. None of the capital ships laid down in 1938 and 1939 could have been
completed even under peaceful conditions.
The Soviets lacked much basic industrial infrastructure: their gun factories could not yet produce or test guns of sixteen- inch caliber; boilers for the powerful steam turbines could not have been
manu- factured until after the war; there was no sophisticated optical equipment for
fire control. An increase in the size of the Red Navy by a factor of eleven within
seven to ten years, given the USSR’s limited resources and capabilities, seemed
unattainable.
In 1939 the navy’s budget had reached 7.5 billion rubles—18.5
percent of all defense expenditure and almost 5 percent of the entire state budget
of 153.1 billion rubles. The next year the four giant battleships of the
Sovetskii Soyuz class, already laid down, alone accounted for almost one-third
of the defense budget.
The big-fleet program was marred by its lack
of a clear strategic purpose, except to serve Stalin’s megalomania to use it (prior
to the arrival of the nuclear deterrent) as the ultimate military arbiter.
Clearly Stalin did for ships what Hitler did with tanks and the war in general, get rid of anyone who disagreed and chase his own idea of how it should be done, despite the people with knowledge suggesting otherwise.
So whilst it’s totally reasonable to suggest that Germany failed to produce things like the Z47 due to war, it’s not fair to say the same applies to the Soviets, as they would have never been capable of doing so, the only argument you can make is that they couldn’t build it because Germany would no longer supply them with everything they needed as they had been doing up to that point.
And to think we’re only a few metal plates away from this being in game as long as it was technically laid down.
Or this if we had consistent rules.
It doesn’t matter. The rule exception exists specifically because some countries otherwise don’t have the ships necessary to have a top rank.
If the Kronsthadt HAD to be added, it could have waited and not have it be added as the single most powerful ship in the game before contemporaries were available, and instead be added when there were more powerful ships in the game and this could be used to fill out the tree, rather than have Stalin’s wet dream dominate naval when the Soviets were the most garbage naval nation out there, and a more realistic version of it be added than this absolute perfect and most optimistic and ideal interpretation of the ship… but of course it’s Russia so no surprise there these days.
Would be entirely different story if this was just ‘some’ ship rather than it being ‘the’ ship. People would have the exact same issue if the R2Y2s weren’t absolute shit these days and instead the most meta, top tier jet dominating the skies as a paper plane, same thing would have applied to the Z47, it’s just a random ship, not a meta ship, and at least it’s realistic and would have been build.
The status of the greater Soviet navy is irrelevant when talking about the Kronshtadt specifically, something that was laid down and whose construction was only impeded due to the 2.5-year long siege of the city it was being constructed in, rather than their incapability to construct it.
Or this if we had consistent rules.
The rules are consistent. You’re just whining about the Kronshtadt, despite it not being an exception to the rule but rather being in the rules and not even being the first paper or incomplete ship to be added to the game. The Ratte wouldn’t even be added if naval rules applied to ground vehicles; it wasn’t constructed beyond scribbles on a napkin.
They’ve been quite clear that stuff like the Kii-class and the H-39-class could be added to the game under these rules. Suggestions for both can be found on the forums.
I didn’t see you listed as a Soviet naval historian, I guess you know better than everyone else.
Right. None of what you quoted said they couldn’t have built the ship that they laid down. It’s irrelevant.
None of what you quoted said they couldn’t have built the ship that they laid down
Except that part where they said they couldn’t have built the ship that they laid down.
None of the capital ships laid down in 1938 and 1939 could have been
completed even under peaceful conditions.
I missed that part. Where does the quote come from?
Regarding the Kronshtadt, it should be noted that the ship as it was implemented in-game is borderline paper due to her current armament setup. The hull was laid down, no doubt about it. However, the 305 mm/55 B-50 Pattern 1940 guns themselves were never built nor was their design even finished. The same applies to the ammunition, hence Gaijin had to invent shells for the ship. Due to the delays, the Soviets ultimately modified the design as Project 69-I and decided to rearm the ship with the German 38 cm SK C/34 gun.
As for the topic of this discussion, I think changing the name would probably be the best way forward in terms of the Mobelwagen test vehicle. Even Doyle seems to view the Mobelwagen and the Zerstörer 45 as separate vehicles. That being said considering the Ostwind II exists in-game (which coincidentally Doyle stated was nothing more than a late war proposal that Ostbau-Sagan lacked any capacity to produce) I don’t think adding the Wirbelwind-looking Flakpanzer IV (3 cm Flakvierling) would be too controversial.
The Naval War College Review, Vol. 57, No. 2: STALIN’S BIG-FLEET PROGRAM’
I find there to be a difference in the circumstances preventing something from being produced and just completely lacking the knowledge, industry/means and ability to do so.
There is, in the case of Kronshtadt it was very much just the manufacturer of the guns who dropped the ball. As for the Ostwind II, It’s just a matter of considering the late-war realities that Ostbau-Sagan was facing
The Ostwind ll at least isn’t an overly ambitious project that is beyond the capabilities of the German military industry, which is also why I have a lot less issue with random vehicles like the Tiger 105 or Panther ll being in the game opposed to a Kronshtadt, whilst their implementation is the main issue, it wasn’t a fantasy project like the P.1000 or whatever.
What happened here a left for one day and the topic is filled with pages about the Russian fleet and german tanks XD
The Panther II in-game is an utter fantasy project, though, on the levels of the tanks that WoT makes up. It’s an amalgamation of four separate projects:
It’s in the end the dev decision whether they want believe the Mobelwage is a completely different from the Zerstörer 45 or not all i can do now is opening a new topic so i can minimise the misunderstanding caused by Gaijin and try to change the name with a bug report
