Flakpanzer Gepard 1A2: Rounds Down Range

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12

So, is it me, or is the a2 bugged?

when you fire off the secondary belt (40 rounds, 20 per gun) for the ap rounds, you are unable to re-arm it on a point untill you also dump all 600+ rounds out of your primary ammunition.

Also, as far as i know, isnt the gepard a2 supposed to be equipped with thermals, programmable munitions to combat drones, frangibale rounds as its primary ammunition and a more advanced radar/tracking system?

The leading on the gun seems to be WAY worse than the gepard at 8.0 for some reason, i rarely ever can score a hit with the radar lead on the A2, but im fine with the normal Gerard. Why is the modernized Gerard a2 from late 1990 early 2000’s have worse target acquisition and tracking than the 1960 variant from 40+ years earlier?

It acts like a normal Gerard with some half ass fligerfaults strapped to the side that don’t seem to benefit from the radar data (something that the AIM-92k rocket can use to track and lock on better, via the data link to the seeker),

It also seems overtired. i cant lock on to most helicopters until they are withing 2.5-3k, and drone are near impossible, yet at 9.7+ they are equipped with thermals and 6km+ AGTM missiles, meaning i have zero capability to fight back against them, not to mention i am CONSTANTLY facing planes like a-4 and a6, and a10 planes with 8+km guided bomb munitions, which means they can kill me before they even show up on my radar.

How is that fair and balanced? Every time i die i’m paying over 6k repairs, and I have zero capability to fight back against them.

Edit:
Also the ammunition box on the back is for spare fligerfaust missiles, yet in the game it is molded as empty, meaning the A2 has no reloads of its missile system, which is inaccurate historically.

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14

IM pretty sure that the 2000 era Gerard is not using the radar and tracking system from 1960 like when it was built.

I know wiki is not always the best source, but to be honest IDK where to really get first hand info on German vehicles.

https://hu.frwiki.wiki/wiki/Flakpanzer_Gepard#Production_et_mises_à_jour

“After that (the a1 variant), a further one hundred and forty-seven vehicles received significant improvements from 1988, with most of the analog systems being replaced by digital controls, while the ammunition and communication systems were also modernized. These Gepards then take on the designation A2.”

" When a target is identified as enemy and the crew wants to engage it, it is tracked by fire control radar . It is also a pulsed Doppler radar manufactured by Siemens and Albiswerk, which [was originally cone scanning , but became monopulse from the B2 (a1) version onwards . It operates in the Ku band and faces the front of the tower at 200 °up to fifteen kilometers at most. The scale of this area helps reduce the system’s reaction time by reducing the need to rotate the turret to engage the target. The radars, the vehicle’s tilt sensors and those that measure the speed at the exit of the nose of the shell, a computer located in the chest room of the turret automatically shows the weapons and performs the necessary pointing in real time. repairs."

So to conclude, Yes, the A2 variant should have a far better radar tracking, prediction and guidance system, since it was modernized for the a1+ variants in 1977 onward. It should not be the same system as on the 1960 variant of the Gerard that is 1.7br lower.

In terms of the Ahead multipurpose shells, i don’t see why its an issue. They are designed to fragment very aggressively, which is why they are great AA shells, and why Germany switched to them, since type are higher velocity than the old 1960 HE shells, meaning they are easier to use to hit jets, and can go farther to combat helicopters. Almost every other AA at that br is rocking 100+ pen APDS belts on chain guns, or just APFSDS shell, and some are even armed with anti tank missiles. So why the Gerard cant have its historical ammo to make it a more effective AA is beyond me and does not make logical sense.

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15

The Gepard can only shoot them not programm them to explode themself, in that regard they would be like slightly differently acting HE ammunition

That is what the FAPDS ammunition is supposed to be used for that one has the increased velocity for it , to be exact the HE ammunition has higher velocity then the AHEAD ammunition even

Ku band is J band range, which both gepards use, both gepard versions use the exact same radars

most of those upgrades are only internaly which doesnt translates into war thunder, the only real important upgrade the Gepard 1A2 got is the ability to shoot FAPDS which is lacking in war thunder

and here a picture that explains radar frequency ranges
image

16

I understand they cant use the airburst programmable feature, but the ahead ammunition still fragments way more upon contact, even in "dumb mode’ and is higher velocity than the HE round (to my knowledge). Regardless, it was a primary ammunition of the gepard A2 since its multipurpose, and should be in game, especially given the BR of this thing.

In terms of the radar, I’m just stating that its not modeled correctly. Compared to the Gepard (a0 variant at 8.0), the fire control system was upgraded and has better and longer range capabilities, and to account for newer munitions developed compared to the original one form the 1960’s. The a2 in game currently does not reflect having that in any way. I can barely get the radar to find plane past 8km, let alone the theoretical 15km normal maximum.

The Geperd A2 is by far the worst AA at the BR, and appears to still be a hobbled together mess of programming and broken models, even close to a year after release, and is unable to effectively fight planes of the BR since they can just outrage it by 3+km more km past my max ( so 8+ total) with precision bombs and guided AGTM;s from helo and 1980+ jets, while i have zero capability to fight back.

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17

like i said ahead has lower velocity

nup primary round is the missing FAPDS

doesnt matter much the ammo is the same so it is not noticeable, the upgrades were so the gepard can use teh fapds ammo which needs better control with higher velocity

18

Ah ya sorry.
I meant to say the fapds is the main ammo that’s higher velocity (and fragments really aggressively on impact).

Which is one of the reasons for it’s upgraded targeting systems and such in the a1+ models.

The ahead ammo is not uaed on geoard to my knowledge since it can’t be programed at it’s detonation range.

19

thats literaly what i said the whole time xD, but jup FAPDS just simply is missing completly currently due to “balancing” reasons, every upgrade including targeting system was so taht it can reliably shoot FAPDS, best guess gajin didnt want to implement it since switching ammo belts would result in completly different targeting lead results and they were to lazy

20

That’s my bad. When I created the suggestion a while ago, I was talking with someone about the penetration values and they used a different formula system on it. However this was changed and I forgot to remove it from the post. I haven’t been able to find the real values of it.

21

ya sorry, there are to many acronyms these days.

My original point was that the gepard a2 does not get its realistic main ammo belt (FAPDS), nor its improved radar and tracking, to give it better and more effective long range capabilities.

Its also modeled incorrectly, and had no spare Faust missiles (what the box on the back is for), nor its backup multi-fuel motor where the ammo used to be (front left), completely missing its thermals for the gunner, on top of a plethora of other issues.

At 9.7, when i’m facing a slew of aircraft that are armed with munitions that can effectively target and destroy me at 8km+, i need to have SOME TYPE of armament to combat them (even if if a worse worse one than theirs)

the current gepard a0 and a2 can only shoot their guns at up to about 5-6km for the 35 (im saying effective is like 2-3km due to how easy it is to avoid the shots due to it being 100% traced and slow), and 2-4km for the faust (depending on target type, changes lock on)

This means that the Gepard A2 has less than HALF the combat capable range on average of what its fighting. That is HORRIBLE.

There is a reason i never see it taken, and i didn’t know why until recently when i unlocked it. I am dying almost every match to A-4, A6e-tram, A-10 planes, su-25k, and a slew of other stuff (helicopters with thermals + 8km+ ATGM’s) before i can even get a CHANCE to shoot back at them.

Half the time, even if i do get a chance, my FIM-92 missile either misses (since they are nerfed artificially and cant guide to target if they bank or circle spin… making them super easy to avoid), and if i do hit, i have like a 60% chance of it not killing for some reason… (last match i hit a UH-1b 3 times with the FIM-92e, and it still did not die, and it re-landed and survived to later kill me with its ATGM)

Its hands down the worst AA of its BR, and way to expensive to repair for what it offers, I am hemorrhaging money trying to ace it.

Edit: It also cant lock on to scout drones at ANY range, which leave my team vulnerable to being spotted constantly. This was something that the gepard was updated for in the a2 model.

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22

Again, the radar and tracking never changed there was no upgrade for it, only an update in regards to tracking so it can calculate the necesar lead for FAPDS

If modeled correctly the gepard 1A2 wouldnt habe stingers at all

Gepard1A2 doesnt have thermals, some kimd of night vision device but no thermals, there was test builds with thermals i think but those are complelty other gepards again

Thats for all Spaas, the ozelot only uses stingers as well and i think most spaas at that br range only got manpads

The Gepard1A2 is quite old, older then most scout drones, at that time drones werent to much of a concern yet, thats why the skyranger got developed, partialy specialized with anti drone capability

23

Solution:
-Add a Gepard 1A2 to BR 10.0 with full FAPDS belts.
-Rename the current Gepard 1A2 to Gepard 1A2 Prototype, give it full FAPDS belts and move it to 10.3-10.7.
-Folder both vehicles together.

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24

Propably with the coming new system all gepards gonna be foldered under the original one, with the sweet 50%rp reduction

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25

Please sneak in the gepards APU as well.

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26

I think the radar is as you say, never upgraded, but the tracker and target was definitely updated to support the new FAPDS ammunition, and compensate with algorithms for longer ranges.

I’m terms of the Gepard a2 not having stingers, it did IRL. Just not all where converted since the ozelot (and maybe other systems, but specifically the ozelot) was considered a cheaper alternative (in both production and maintenance)

The Gepard a2 did have upgrade packages to give it thermals (among other things), which would have renamed it Gepard 2. There was a few that where prototyped, but I cant find photo of it as a whole vehicle, but i did find a photo of (part of) the sensors upgrade package itself.

There was also a newer attempt, specifically using the PUMA IFVs gunner sight (EOTS II) integrated into the targeting computer. I found a photo of a converted test bed model, including a video of it live firing in tandem with a 2nd testbed model. There are a few dozen of these to exist to my knowledge.

Gepard with Puma IFV thermal and ranging sensors tied into the targeting computer.
image
1980-90 sensor upgrade package (not fully adopted due to cost of retrofitting)
image

I suppose that some of the other AA at that BR have similar issues, but not all, and generally the gepard is by far the weakest. I mean look at the American 10.0 AA. for .3 br higher (which at this br level, is nothing since you always get uptiered), you get a 25mm chain gun with 3/4th loaded HVAP belts, like 8 stingers (with 8 spare), better radar, and anti tank rockets that pen in excess of 290mm, not to mention its on a crazy fast wheeled platform, and is like 25% less high and overall smaller, and it gets full thermals.

That is a HUGE improvement, an that’s just once example. Sure some of the other SPAA dont have guns, but they do have better, longer range missiles0 both at higher and lower br, which at this br is WAY more useful when your fighting outer space camping JETs slinging precision munitions 8+km, nuking your team.

I cant find the original source, but i do remember hearing in a interview somewhere (pretty sure it was like a tank chats episode) that the gepard was able to track commercial drone at ranges of 100m out to about 2km. I don’t see why it is completely unable to deal with drones, when drones at that br can be a determiner of winning and loosening do the the amount of information they can give your team. It seems that they should have some method of being combated by AA. Id say id use the Stingers, but i can never get them to hit. You lock on, launch, and it flied directly at it, and within like the last 100m it veers off randomly every time like it was jammed, which it should not due given the AIM-92k missiles is IR/UV locked with anti jamming and flair countermeasures programed in to them. It should be able to hit a drone it locked on to flying in a straight, unmoving line easily, even if it is small. Soon as it locks on that should be it.

Side note,
how are you doing the multi quote thing? I cant figure that out in this new forum format.

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27

jup like i said

not used in the german army, the ones with stingers was a test version for germans when they tried it out but never saw use in the german military

like i said another gepard version alltogether, not the current gepard in the game

cant say much to this since i never used it, but as far as i am aware the LVAD onbly gets 66mm penetration with the HVAP round, while the gepard gets 127 mm penetration with the side ammo, and even then the API-T has 68mm as well, so the tank hunter ability of the gepard is quite a bit stronger, personaly i just use the default belt as general use they are best for mixed use

of course, but the problem is that the gepard is a used as a tank destroyer a lot and is multipurpose depending on the situation you will make more ground kills with it then air

I am not sure but i dont think any spaa can lock the scout drones

you would need the proxy stingers for that if anything for such a small target, the problem is that those are bugged on the Gepard1A2 and cant currently be used

you have to mark the text like if you would want to copy paste it, once it is marked a quote pop up will appear above the text

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28

test.

Edit: Cool, thanks :)

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29

Even when i was using the Ozelot, the 92-k missile have the same issue when they just fly off randomly 95% of the time. I think in my 100+ attempts to shoot them down, i killed maybe like 2, the rest where just haywire missiles. even with rear aspect lock (drone engine).

I highly recommend you test them to see what i mean

Some can. and some vehicles that are not AA can also do so (like puma, 2s38, and so on)

Given the current meta of either everything being either light tanks (type 16, WV, or Rakenpanzer 90, etc) or pure MBT/hybrid tanks, the it is very difficult to get kills with the Gerard against ground targets in this BR, since literally everything else (including the AA) is thermal and has APFSDS. Most maps at this BR where very far ranges, so the slight benefit in pen on the standard belt does not do me any good against hoards of abrams, t-72/80 tanks, merkavas and chinese ztz96 tanks (and so on). I would trade my guns for better (and reliable) rockets any day when i’m rocking my AA, otherwise i will just take any other tank… to kill tanks…

its like the r3 in many ways. its sheer volume of fire with the HVAP belts that shreds tanks. Even though its like 5 less pen than the Gerard belt, its still good enough to kill pretty much everything armor wise in and above its br, especially from the side (which is what the Gerard has to do anyway). Not to mention its AT rockets do 290mm of pen, like i said, meaning it can kill most things frontally if forced to, quite easily, something the gepard is incapable of. Its also got gen 2/3 thermals, and over 4x more AA missiles, which makes it significantly better at fighting helacopters, sicne they usually fly below radar and hide in the forest lines 4+km away. so thermals are a HUGE advantage there (on top of for fighting other vehicles in forests and stuff)

Yes, but there ARE Gerard a2 variants with thermals. Some with the OG 1980 stuff that just never got fully adopted, and modern retrofit stuff.

The Current in game a2 version should have the 1980 upgrade sight package with gen 1 thermals. It already had the Laser range finder upgrade, which was part of that upgrade package anyway.

I would also like to see the modernized retrofit version (Gepard 1 a2(r) ?) at maybe like 10.0 since it wouldn’t change much over the normal a2 at 9.7, other than allowing it to track drones, and upgrade the 1980 gen 1 thermals to like gen 3.

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30

tried with the ozelot in test drive, seems like stingers have a certain minimum distance, before that they dont guide

31

I cant get them to work against scout drones at any range. I have even done rear aspect locks with the drone at like 1-2km away, and they still veer off randomly 95% of the time. It seems to loose lock or something within the last 20m and just fly’s off randomly, and even with the proxy on the 92k, it still never gets close enough to trigger it before it veers off.

There is no reliable way for the Gepard AA to protect their team by destroying the scout drones.

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32

T80B got thermals, because they once tried them on the one which was trialed at Sweden.

And 2S38 is still not used by russian military, but that didn’t stop them from adding it to the game.

Why other countries won’t get their vehicles in the configuration they were meant to be?
Why T80B and T80U get thermals that were upgrades decades after the introduction of the vehicle, or tested on few prototypes, but gepard can’t get thermals that were tested as prototypes?

These double standards are ridiculous.

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