Lovely…well this round may be technically realistic, but with the way snail implemented APCR the round is likely dead on arrival. Now if they removed the shell shattering it might be decently playable, but still horrendous on postpen. Snail would totally ignore the “API” part of the round, just like they did German 15mm API(c)-T but magically didn’t on 12.7mm Berezins or 14.5mm MGs because they’re Russian, I guess.
APCR shells as a whole need to be reworked, that’s true.
I have oerlikon’s standard targets for 20-35mm ammunition to compare ingame performance with and its just sad to see how poor the angle performance of even modern APIC-T (APCR) is compared to their irl counterparts.
I sorta get the idea for ww2 apcr, but there its a similar thing to apds, where we have early apds and modern apds, the latter being much better overall. (Doesnt shatter as likely, sometimes has shattering disabled alltogether, has better angle-performance etc.)
Yet for APCR we have essentially one shitty preset for everything.
So I guess I could try getting atleast certain apcr rounds improved using these figures.
30mm APIC-T for the HS831L/KCB-B for example pens minimum 45mm RHA (Tensile Strength: 105-120daN/mm²) at 45° AoA at 100m and 60mm RHA (Hardness R=160kg/mm²) at 60° AoA at 200m irl.
Edit:
I quickly uploaded my scans of the Standard Targets Brochure to a g-drive for those interested;
https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1-eQzAEtaHlcNSSNVoRjymbGNneLFY-oX
Note:
Sometimes they write “AP-T” etc., however, refer to the Oerlikon-Designation to see whether its actually APCR; If its HLx HKx or HSx, then its APCR/APIC (H = Hartkern = Hard-Core, L = Leuchtspur = Tracer, S = Spurlos = Tracerless and K = no clue, either typo for L or sth else, either way K also means no tracer)
Third character (x) is always for the calibre;
A = 20 mm
B = 25 mm
C = 30 mm
D = 35 mm
Other stuff for first character:
M = Minenesprengbrand (Mine-High Explosive Incendiary)
S = Sprengbrand (High Explosive Incendiary, usually base-fuze)
P = Panzersprengbrand (Armour Piercing High Explosive Incendiary)
T = Treibspiegel (Discarding Sabot)
U = Uebung (Target Practice)
H = Hartkern (Hard-Core)
For a few shells, the Hispano Suiza Designation is used (831 RIA for example)
iirc it’s just RIA which is APHEI and UIA which is HEI.
So does it mean AMX-30 also cannot get APDS? I though about it as that is a prototype from 1968-70.
What we need is a AMX-13 DCA, which was used until the 1990s
RARDEN APDS was made around 1970-1972, so it could have it in theory - just that france most likely never used it.
Neither did Falcon but atleast the UK had it in stock and service with RARDEN 30.
Idk whether the french used APIC-T in service, I may be able to tell once I have the respective manual.
The APIC-T (Hispano Suiza RINT) did already exist pre 1971, likely since the early-mid 60s.
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If the game does not model armor quality and armor plate shattering, nevermind failing to model any chance of APHE shells shattering upon impact with plates that are too thick, there’s simply no sane, balanceable reason to model subcalibers that way either.
So I have heard that the Falcon’s gun is not the same as the guns on the Warrior and Fox - so what rounds is the Falcon actually supposed to definitively have? It sounds like it should get APHE, APIC-T, and HE by the sound of it. Was the gun even able to fire the APDS or is the cartridge size wrong?
I said that Falcon did not use (or was not advertised with using) APDS.
Its not dual-fed and as sole AA munition APDS isnt really viable (Not to be confused with FAPDS, which I dont think was available in 30x170 though).
Falcon does however not use the same gun as Fox, Scimitar etc.
Falcon uses the Oerlikon Automatic Cannon Type KCB-B (Former designation: Hispano Suiza HS 831L / SLM), which can technically use the same ammunition as the RARDEN 30 used by Fox, Scimitar etc.
However, the RARDEN 30 additionally had different ammunition types available than what was advertised for Falcon, which were essentially modified versions of the Hispano Suiza HS 831L ammunition (and those that Fox, Scimitar, etc. used in service):
(Not listed above are: RARDEN APDS & Hispano Suiza APHEI)
Yes, both RARDEN 30 and KCB-B (HS 831L) use the 30x170 cartridge and could technically fire it.
But again, HS 831L is not dual-fed and APDS is not viable as sole AA munition (cant be used mixed due to differing ballistics)
Oerlikon Automatic Cannons Type KCB-B02 (LH Feed) & KCB-B03 (RH Feed)
Former Designations: HS 831-SLM-2 (LH Feed) & HS 831-SLM-3 (RH Feed)
RARDEN 30
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So it’s the same thing essentially as how the R3 T20 FA-HS has a gun with the same dimensions as the Rh202 but was not equipped with DM63 APDS, despite being technically able to fire it.
Honestly, give it both APICT and APDS, and let the whiners eat sabot until they run out of tears to cry with. If it can’t dual-feed things, then players can just pick what round type they want most. Can the guns on the Falcon and AMX-30 DCA be fired individually? If they can then theoretically you could load one gun with one round type and the other with APDS.
I’m fine with giving SPAA decent anti-armor munitions if they were intended to receive them (ie: 20 mm Flak with Pzgr.40) but in cases like this were the APDS round was only compatible in theory as a full belt, I think it makes more sense to just stick with the rounds HS/Oerlikon made for the gun. Especially since the APCR-I round explicitly manufactured for the gun could already provide adequate penetration anyways. There just isn’t a need to stretch reality here.
Rh 202 (Former: Mauser Model B) and Oerlikon 20 mm Automatic Cannon Type KAD (Former: HS 820) both utilize the same 20x139 cartrigde and the KAD should theoretically be able to use APDS aswell (based on argentina using APDS for both Rh 202 and KAD cannons in their VCTP)
I guess for R3 T120 the main reason it doesnt get it is for balancing reasons.
I can try looking further into the AP-T (APCR) though to see by how much/if it underperforms, since I have basically all relevant specs for Hispano Suiza’s and Oerlikons AP-T (APCR) shells for both KAD (HS820) and KAA & KAB (204GK & 5TG).
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The falcon needs to be 7.3. to actually give Brittain an spaa, where the majority of there tanks sit at BR 7.3/7.7. While almost every other nation has some sort of fast firing, radar spaa at 7.3/7.7. Brittain does not.
Makes no sense for the falcon to not be here with the apds removal
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Same thing for france. Has big 7.7 and 8.0 lineups but literally no SPAA for them to speak of.
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