Okay so… personally and I am sure a lot of people will agree with me that the F-5 (specially the C variant) spam is getting out of hand, to the point that its becoming boring to play that br range since there is not any skill, its just 6-10 F-5s spamming aim9Es and guns, and flaring everything, which brings me to the reason of this post… according to unclassified documents of the F-5… the F-5 did not have any flares… which if you have played against them… you know thats not exactly accurate ingame, I don’t think it will be bad to remove the flares from the F-5s ingame, not only will it solve the spam problem but also make the game accurate while not removing the F-5s competitivity, this would have to come in with a BR change to make it fair to the F-5 players… 9.3-7 i think is fair, but alas… i gave my piecee
F-5 at 9.3-.7 bad idea
F-5C (ab)user myself.
Remove flare pods if its historical.
Keep at 10.3.
Raise BR of all other planes with all aspects to 11.7+ and decompress BR of all other planes accordingly.
10.3 should be the cutoff BR where you can’t meet planes with all aspects.
So how does something like the A-10 deal with the R-27ER / -ET, let alone the upcoming AMRAAM & R-77 that it would face from said 12.x aircraft? it only ever carried the AIM-9L / -9M & -9X. it already struggles to match performance with 9.0 airframes.
That’s half its problem. It has insanely poor performance FM wise, the saving grace is you can first turn everyone, you are near enough guaranteed to win a headon, and flying within 3kms of an A-10 without flares is a death sentence
It doesn’t and shouldn’t deal with them. Its not a dedicated CAS’s role to deal with air superiority fighters. A-10 should and would only be deployed to the battlefield after air superiority has been achieved.
Moreover we can’t ruin entire rank just because muh A-10 or muh Su-25 would suffer. Dedicated attackers should not be able to beat dedicated fighters. Period. Get that trough your head.
And so they should be Free kills with no chance of fighting back? If Air related modes were supposed to be entirely TDM’s they would never have implemented Bombers or Strike / Attack Aircraft in the first place. So it is important that they do / should have some role beyond providing targets for interceptors that can’t turn, with fighters.
The issue stems from Map design and the static spawns and pathing to relevant objectives which makes for obvious routes to fly for each side / role on any given map, this could be fixed by;
- Spreading out the spawns (e.g. along edges / corners of a map / specific zones to provide a fighter screen, and depth to allow for target sorting and time to setup intercepts).
- Adding the in-air rearm locations / respawns into regular maps (to avoid airfield camping).
- Universal Airspawns based on optimal time to climb to a role based altitude for a given airframe.
- Spreading out objectives to better make use of the map and terrain features to help make intercepts and pathing more spontaneous and varied.
- More Threatening AI controlled AA / SAM systems to allow for ambushed aircraft to flee to a give area and give Attackers a role in breaking open defenses for fighter to flood into, and interceptors a reason to patrol and perform interceptions to protect round objectives from bombers.
They are mostly fine where they are, either accept that there is some risk involved (as there should be) and use your given fighter’s universal edge in flight performance to maintain a distance outside their missile range and deal with other targets while they are interested, bait for missiles or use your superior climb rate and radar, and map knowledge to dive on them while they are busy. It really isn’t hard, just entitled players not being able to think critically about what threats they are facing and their potential capabilities.
They wouldn’t win at all if the default behavior of fighters wasn’t to mindlessly close the distance.
So they shouldn’t have any capacity to capitalize on mistakes that their opponent makes? May as well remove the entire enemy teams ordnance wholesale just so you feel like you can compete.
It’s been beaten to death a thousand times on this forum and probably will do so for years to come.
America did not mount AN/ALE-40 dispensers on their F-5A/Cs, however export variants did receive this addition. The F-5C Skoshi Tiger did not have the pods installed when they were supplied to the South Vietnamese Air Force.
Gaijin has long maintained that if the plane either did or had the potential to use something, either a munition or system, it could possibly be implemented in game. This is what they have done here considering the plane gets up tiered to 11.3.
No, I don’t wish for A-10 to be a free kill. Infact I would very much like to play the A-10 myself extensively. If we had proper AIR RB EC, like in SIM, there would be no issues playing the A-10 at top tier.
This is strictly a game mode problem. AIR RB has (d)evolved into fighter vs fighter team deathmatch and here you have absolutely no right to ruin dedicated fighters such as F-86, Mig-17 with all aspect capable A-10 just because it would be a free kill in current AIR RB top tier.
War Thunder’s current AIR RB has been created almost 10 years ago and has not seen much changes (apart from shorter match time and increased ticket bleed to name the major few changes). The top plane was Mig-15 and F-86 at that time. Most of the time you’d play in WW2 settings with WW2 planes. Bombers used to take more punishment and were capable of destroying enemy airfield. Then GRB came and utilised CAS aircraft. Its entirely Gaijin’s fault they “forgot” to update/evolve AIR RB with the addition of newer aircraft. Probably to save costs… but bad executive decisions not what we discuss here.
Absolutely not. Again, dedicated fighter should absolutely have no issues dealing with dedicated CAS. But in WT its often the other way around. For CAS aircraft not to suffer, Gaijin turned them into a bootleg fighter and put them against dedicated fighters without flares and similiar engine/maneuvering performance. There is absolutely no excuse of having to face A-10’s in an early cold war era dedicated fighter.
Ok tell me how do you win a fight if you fly the F-86A vs A-10 with AIM-9L.
Oh boy, this is not about me. This is about fair balance. If people feel like the balance is whack, they will avoid playing those planes.
PS: I can assure you my stats are way above yours, so please avoid talking competition because you would most likely embarass yourself.
Without trying to demean your entire argument, have you considered there are aircraft at this BR that still mostly rely on their guns for kills and have no flares? This is precisely why the US F-104s and early MiG-21s are at such an insanely low BR. I can remember when the F-13 was 9.7 and the F-104s were 9.7. their problem is they both mostly reliant on their guns for kills, and coming within 2.5kms of an A-10 or Su-25 was a death sentence because of the missiles. Hunters, MiG-17s and 19s all (for the most part) rely on their guns and get absolutely slaughtered.
It’s not as if they can do anything. what do you do in a 1v1 situation? It’s not as if a Fighter should be running away from an attacker. A fighter, should have the upper hand in Air Combat, not be at the mercy of a 9L slinging A-10?
In an ideal world there would be a gamemode where attack aircraft can scuttle off, attack grounds to their heart’s content, and fighters wouldn’t have to worry. but we don’t have that.
We’re not asking to remove all A/A ordnance from these attack aircraft, for one that’d need them to lose their guns, which is stupid. No, what we do mind is having A-10s getting Ace games with 9Ls yet full blown air superiority fighters get blasted out of the sky some random bloke in his Attacker who used a grossly undertiered missile system.
I dont see how the f-5’s are an issue at this br. I have one and used it to help grind out the lengthy US Air tree. Most of the time the new people are just base bombing with it to get those RP points and die miserably before or just after the base bomb. The missiles on that thing are not at all hard to defeat, you could really just turn hard and the missile will not track.
Most of the people now are jumping into the F4-S to base bomb at the higher BR. Both BR’s are filled with Premium planes trying to grind the tree down. Sometimes they are just bots so easy to kill as they just fly in a straight line and dont do anything else.
The F-5’s are fine where they are. they are light nimble fighters, and plenty can be done to bring them down ( i get shot down all the time ) Just because you cant click, bang, kill with every missile you have doesnt mean that the plane is broken or needs to be nerfed so its easier for you to get kills.
They certainly aren’t impossible to shoot down, no. They’re not easy, but theyre not tricky with a bit of coordination. 1 on 1, against a skilled pilot they can become a nightmare. but I haven’t found many of those kicking around
Not entirely, if certain specific mechanics were implemented like DECM, ECM pods and ordnance like Anti-Radiation and Cluster Bombs & Dispensers etc… They could be shifted upwards due to having some ability to deny the range advantage, assuming that Strike / Attack airframes were also kept relatively well armed for their BR (within the bounds of what they had access to e.g. AIM-9M / AIM-95 etc.).
They aren’t being ruined if they are played properly, sure their life is harder since htey have to deal with missiles, but it would be no different if they had to deal with the F-89J /-H, F-101B, F-102 or F-106 all of those are approximate contemporaries with medium performance All Aspect missiles and far better suited flight characteristics.
Also its not as if the F-86 doesn’t have it’s own options.
Any form of AAM / rockets can be used as Ersatz flares due to how IR tracking has been (improperly) implemented so its not as if they have no options, just poor ones.
in a one vs one? ignore them, maneuver to at range and kill ground targets, if they split focus keep going, use terrain and map knowledge to block line of sight to them and close, don’t miss with guns or TF fused rockets and be prepared to die.
Ok, and? Not everyone plays competitively, and playing for fun is more enjoyable anyway. It’s part of why I think AAB is far better balanced than ARB.
It’s mostly due to the fact that there is no reason to climb to the altitudes that would make them competitive at higher BRs and that they don’t do well as turn fighters due to their respective wing planforms either limiting AoA or allowing for to much initial pull due to the instructor at least below 3000 meters where most combat occurs. They fly much better in SIM or with a joystick and relatively small armament pool.
US F-104’s could see some improvement through the AIM-9C /-9D, but would mostly benefit from the reintroduction of high altitude AI recon / bomber mission targets.
Some aircraft just aren’t flown well by the majority of players, the re-implementation of a hard BR cutoff in the matchmaker was also an option that was trialed of course.
Think laterally, abuse your map knowledge and performance edge and knowing where they will be targeting, to control the encounter, taking time fused rockets is also an option to increase the likelihood of survival to be used in a short range pass or to decoy a missile launch. Depending on the airframe you may even have a significant overmatch in terms of magazine depth so it should be fairly easy to get them to waste their 2 /4x missiles and have rockets left. After that is accomplished proceed to treat them like a bi-plane / prop that someone has dragged up and rope-a-dope / energy fight and win, just make sure you wait for them to begin to stall before you go for guns.
We did it have one intermittently, it was called RB EC but Gaijin killed it for one reason or another I do hope they bring it back at some point after a revamp but I don’t have high hopes.
The issue of being 3rd partied is a map design issue at it’s core. At least for the most part though it has always been hard to win a 1 vs many without numerous mistakes being made.
There is / was definitely something up with their DM and them managing to survive significant damage, just like the Su-25 I’ve have various occasions where they have walked off AIM-7 / AIM-54s and been practically untouched.
R-60s on mig-21pfm (which was advertised with them only to be removed once it became playable) noooooooooo.
Flares on the f5c, 27ER/T for germany: Completely legit.
I don’t understand the logic behind the idiot that is in charge of this
You think killing F-5Cs require no skill?
F-5s having flares is realistic.
@J_ackal
Ah yes, you’re back accusing all 10.3s of handholding players again, claiming that all of them make Gaijin money.
Gaijin wanted PFM to be 9.3 instead of at the time 10.0.
@bananomet
F-5C would be at most 10.0 without flares, see Mirage 3 in Israel, which is superior in armament, so F-5C would be closer to 9.7 without flares.
It keeps its flares, just cause skilled F-5 pilots are killing others doesn’t mean it should be artificially nerfed.
F-5C, much like A6M5 Ko, is not an OP vehicle; people just get too slow around them.
What do you mean you don’t understand? You know why they did that. If the game was going to follow history as a balancing guide, Germany would have their Typhoon by now.
Ahahah hahah ahahha. How do you win with bwhahaha with a fighter against CAS? Ignore CAS and ahahahahahah sheesh and kill ground units lmao. Sure buddy, let me just start strafing AI heavy tanks with my .50cal and hope the A-10 doesn’t kill me while I lose all my speed trying to CAS. Ahahahahaha. This is the funnies shit I’ve read all month.
Dude you couldn’t be sober when you typed all that, right?
I tell you what, because of the spotting system, the A-10 knows if you come in its radius all the time. You can start on its six, but before you close in, he can easily do 180 and shoot AIM-9L up your nose.
Your replies are just Saul Goodman tier defence. Not worth my time replying to you, because at this point you must be trolling. If not, seek help. Bye.
Oh god, not you again with your contrarian arguments!
I play the F-5C myself. It pulls 15G’s, behaves almost like an F-22, laser accurate one tap guns up to 1km, survives extreme damage. The only downside to it are the AIM-9E, but they are good enough for 10.3.
Source: 4.3K/D. I don’t think I have a K/D higher than 4 with any other plane.