F4D-1 (BuNo 134763) - The Fox-3 Sparrow

You want this?
  • Yes
  • No
0 voters

The F4D-1 in this suggestion differs slightly from the production F4D-1, although they share a designation

The reason this is a suggestion and not a bug report is because modifications on the F4D-1 were required for the use of the Sparrows.

History

In the 1950s, the NAVY started researching the possibility of a guided air-to-air HVAR rocket. The result was the radar beam-riding Sparrow I, aka the Aim-7A. It was operationally used on the F3D Skyknight, F7U Cutlass, and F3H, but it was trash and soon discarded. They also appear to have been used on a modified F6F-5K, although info on use of the Aim-7A on the hellcat is scarce.

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Spoiler

aim-7a

F6F-5K

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Although it was garbage, it wasn’t useless. The Aim-7A paved the way to further advances in air-to-air technology. The engineers redesigned the missile, and opted to put the radar inside the missile itself. The result was the only ARH Sparrow ever made, the XAAM-N-2a, later renamed to the XAAM-N-3, aka the AAM-N-3, aka the Sparrow II, later redesignated the Aim-7B.

The Sparrow II was tested on a modified F4D-1 Skyray. The modifications were minor, requiring only some small changes to the circuitry and avionics, and the Skyray was otherwise completely unchanged. Only one Skyray ever received these modifications. The missile itself was lackluster, nevertheless, the F5D Skylancer would be designed for use of the Sparrow II, designated the AAM-N-3. The Skylancer project was soon dropped, and took the Sparrow II down with it. Although the Canadians pulled the Sparrow II project forward for a short time with the Avro Arrow project, they too dropped it
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Spoiler

Sparrow_II

As Tommy H. Thomason once remarked,
“. . .incorporating a radar in the Sparrow proved to be a concept ahead of its time, one not fully realized until the Phoenix missile became operational.”

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While the Sparrow II was a flop, it again paved the way for advances in air-to-air technology. The engineers redesigned, and created the XAAM-N-6a, aka the Sparrow III. The practical thing to do for the XAAM-N-6a, proved to be an SARH design. The XAAM-N-6a was put into operational service on the F3H-2, and redesignated the AAM-N-6. The Sparrow III was quite effective against bombers, and thus the SARH design was solidified for Sparrows going foward. Further innovation eventually led to the Aim-7D and subsequent models, which the F-4H Phantom, the replacement for the F3H-2, would be designed as a carrier for.­

This is probably a good time to mention that, around this time period, the Sparrow I/II/III and AAM-N-(x) designations were dropped as the NAVY and Airforce had agreed on the Aim-(x) designation for air-to-air missiles

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Back to the the Sparrow II

The Sparrow II was an ARH missile, as opposed to the SARH that we know and expect from Sparrows today. The results of the testing with the F4D-1 were put together in study published on July 1, 1957. The study contains specifications, flight characteristics, and instructions for use for the Sparrow II, aswell as the modifications made on the Skyray.

­The study is contained in the spoiler.

Spoiler

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­The F4D-1

­­In 1947, the U.S Navy funded a design study on a delta wing interceptor with the capability of taking out a target, 50,000 ft (15,240 m) high within 5 minutes of detection. The original design was based heavily off the work of Alexander Lippisch, specifically the work done on the Me 163. The original design incorporated especially T H I C C wings, and was intended to use two J34 Turbojets, however as refinements were made, the two J34s were replaced with a single J40, and the wing thickness was reduced to aid high speed flight.

The design team for the F4D-1 decided to make accommodations for other engines to be used, which turned out to be far more important than they had originally anticipated. Design issues with the J40 ceased production of the engine, and due to the accommodations a J35 was able to be used temporarily for the prototype instead. The J57, a larger, more powerful engine was able to be fitted to the Skyray, only needing a redesign of the intake for more airflow to accommodate the larger engine. The later F4D-1 set the time-to-altitude record, climbing 49,221 ft (15,003 m) from a standing start in 2 minutes 36 seconds.

The VFAW-3 squadron were the first to receive F4D-1s, and were assigned to NORAD, based in San Diego. VFAW-3 was the only NAVY squadron in a dominantly RCAF and USAF organization. The USMC also received F4D-1s, and in 1962, it was redesignated to the F-6A Skyray, however because the F4D-1 was limited exclusively to interception in an era where multirole fighters were in high demand, its service life was quite short.

The F5D

An upgraded Skyray designated the F4D-2 was designed using an upgraded engine, an order for 100 was place but cancelled. A second upgrade dubbed the F4D-2N bearing the upgraded engine, and an upgraded radar, was made, which would ultimately evolve into the F5D Skylancer. The F5D Skylancer was intended to be the successor to the F4D-2N Skyray, capable of flying mach 2 and carrying Aim-7Bs. The F5D Skylancer performed well, and was easy to fly. Despite this, it was cancelled after just 4 prototypes were made due to the F8U Crusader II being too similar. Conspiracy theorists, however, claim it was to avoid a monopoly as the Douglas Aircraft Company already made up a major portion of NAVY aircraft.

Two F5D prototypes went to NASA in the 1960s as a supersonic testbed, one of which retired in 1962 and the other in 1970. The other two were grounded and designated for spare parts.

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Specifications (F4D-1)

Flight performance

  • Length: 45 ft 3 in

  • Wingspan: 33 ft 6 in

  • Height: 13 ft 0 in

  • Wing area: 557 sq ft

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  • Powerplant: Pratt & Whitney J57-P-8

  • Airfoil root: NACA 0007-63/30-9.5

  • Airfoil tip: NACA 0004-5 63/30-9.5­­

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  • Max speed: 722 mph

  • Service ceiling: 55,000 ft

  • Climb rate: 18,300 ft/min

  • Thrust/weight ratio: 0.71
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­­Weaponry­

  • 4 × 20 mm Colt Mk 12 cannons - 65 shots per gun, 260 total
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  • 6 x hardpoints for 19x FFAR rocket pods or 7x FFAR rocket pods

  • 4 x hardpoints for Aim-9Bs or Aim-7Bs

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  • APQ-50A radar

  • Aero 13F fire-control radar (provides CCIP for rockets)

­source for the CCIP

Spoiler

Screenshot from 2024-12-17 11-15-03

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Implementation ingame
There’s realistically three ways that the F4D-1 with Sparrow IIs could be added.

  • Add as a tech tree vehicle
  • Replace the F4D-1 ingame
  • Add as an event vehicle & move the F4D-1 to the tech tree
  • other (comment below)
  • No (redundant but for some reason necessary)
0 voters

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The first option, adding it as a tech tree vehicle would be the most normal out of the three.

Second option, replacing the F4D-1 ingame would be out of the ordinary. I’m not aware of any cases of a vehicle being flat out replaced with a different variant.
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Third option adding it as an event vehicle and moving the normal F4D-1 to the tech tree would also be out of the ordinary, as an event/premium vehicle has never been moved to the tech tree before (although tech tree vehicles have been moved to the event/premium section).

There’s also the possibility of a premium/event, although I doubt the WT community would be happy about that.
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Why it should be added
The F4D-1 with Sparrow IIs would be a very fun and unique vehicle to play. It would also receive the title of earliest ARH missile in the game, which would make it extra special. It’s also in general just a really neat plane.

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Sources

Spoiler

Avialogs: Aviation Library - F4D-1 Skyray - XAAM-N-3 Sparrow II MSC

https://www.designation-systems.net/dusrm/m-7.html

Tailhook Topics: August 2013

Douglas F4D Skyray - Wikipedia

Douglas F5D Skylancer - Wikipedia

AIM-7 Sparrow - Wikipedia

2 Likes

I am giving it a +1 because it was used as a testbed for the AIM-7B Sparrow even though it was not 100% functional. Personally, I’d like to have the F5D Skylancer added first, as it was going to be the primary user for the AIM-7B and had an improved and strengthened airframe. It could be potentially powered by a J57-P-14 engine which further provides more thrust. Hence, these could justify moving the F5D to the upper BR outside the F4D’s BR while the F5D can use its AIM-7B. Again, it’s up to Gaijin how they want to model the F5D.

Regardless, why not, it would be nice to have both this F4D testbed and Skylancer if that’s necessary.

One note: the AIM-7A was a radar beam-riding missile, not laser-guided.
I say -1, I’d so much rather have an F5D prototype designed for the AIM-7B than a F4D prototype carrying the AIM-7B.

Thank you for the distinction.

+1, it’s also interesting that this missile has 20G overload while the AIM-7C has 15, that already makes it way better, aside from being ARH

The 7B heavier and has a shorter burntime, but more thrust.

  • 7C
    172 kg
    7238 lbs (thrust)
    2.04s burn
    mach 1.3
    15g
    I band

  • 7B
    190 kg
    8000 lbs (thrust)
    1.84s burn
    mach 2.6
    20g
    K band

The Aim-7C almost never hits its max Gs, and has very short range. The Aim-7B would be similar, however it would be launched from a faster aircraft. Either way, it’ll be interesting to see how well it performs. If I had to guess, this modified F4D-1 would likely be 9.3.

Boy I sure do love when gaijin removes things without sources because it came to them in a dream.

Anyway, great potential aircraft for war thunder, and I pray gaijin finally gives us the F4D-1 in the TT where it belongs and replaces the event vehicle with this. The F4D-1 always belonged in the tech tree. (I also wonder, this the F4D-1 we have ingame seem to be underperforming speed wise, as ingame it cant break Mach yet it was known for it. Not to mention the F5D can break Mach 2, yet you’re telling me this can’t break Mach 1?

1 Like

I’m not sure how Gaijin would balance this one.
Probably safer to add it without the Fox-3 missile unfortunately.
But I would like to see the aircraft in game.

It’s not unbalanced at all really. It has low range, easily outpulled, can be one chaffed, and has horrible launch parameters. It’s really a gimmick if anything.

2 Likes

F4D-1 is already ingame. The whole point of this suggestion is that this specific F4D-1 was modified to use Aim-7Bs. The Aim-7Bs themselves have super low delta V, so the majority of their speed is coming from the aircraft.

Just a question, have you used Aim-7Cs?

It’s also supposed to be able to climb at a 70° angle.

2 Likes

This would be really fun to have in the TT. +1

I’d also like to have some of the planes with the beam-riding Sparrow I.

1 Like

Ngl Aim-7A would be a great way to make the F3D unique.

I wonder how balanced an F6F-5K with Aim-7As would be though.

2 Likes

Next we need a suggestion for the Wildcat with Sparrows

1 Like

AIM-7A would also be incredibly fun (and goofy) on the F7U Cutlass, which is already an absolute goober of a plane

Safe to say, early Sparrows as a whole would be great (as well as the planes that had/used them) :D

Ye. Honetly, all three of them, the Cutlass, Skyknight, and Hellcat would be very interesting vehicles if they were to received Aim-7As. I just wonder what BR the hellcat would be balanced at. Maybe around 5.0?

1 Like