F-4 Family AIM-9L + AIM-9M

So this is something that’s really frustrated me since grinding out the US tree and gaining access to the F-4 family. We know that later variants had access to the AIM-9L and AIM-9M sidewinders.

I’d really like to see them gain a little more competative edge. Not just in the US tree but across the entire family in each nation. This aircraft was the work horse for militaries around the world for a long time.

I get the balance arguments, but we do have other equivalent aircraft in the same eras with out of the box support for both (MiG-23 with all aspects and SARH).

What was the rational for denying the F-4 its full potential? I’m really hoping that the suggestion for the F-4 ICE goes through - but I have a feeling after the F-20 that’s gonna be a $100 😂.

Just looking for discussion on this.


The Phantoms would need to go up pretty heavily if they did. Gaijin refuses to give the British ones AIM-9L’s and they have one of the worst (if not the worst) Phantom flight models and they’re pretty high at 11.3, so any others getting 9L’s would be completely outclassed and overtiered.

Germany will definitely get the F-4F ICE and as a Tech tree vehicle until the Eurofighter comes around eventually.


Be careful what you wish for. F-4s already have pretty mid flight performance for the tier, if you uptier them you end up with an EJ Kai or Kurnass 2000 style issue, where you are utterly reliant on your missiles to get anything done. The second someone gets behind you, you might as well J out because there is nothing you can do.


No, the Tornado F.3 compared to the Phantom FGR.2 are both 11.3 whilst the Tornado hosts a better and more long range radar, much more CM and better heat and radar missiles. The reason Gaijin hasn’t given them their AIM-9Ls are because they believe its already balanced.

With the current performance of both 11.3 F-4s and the AIM-9L I believe it wouldn’t warrant a BR increase


I think you misunderstood what i said.

The Tornado has better weapons systems but an even worse flight model. Hence why it’s at the same br as the Phantom.

It is a fact that Gaijin has denied AIM-9L’s on British phantoms because they would have to go up.

I think they should get them, but Gaijin doesn’t. But why would you uptier other phantoms to 11.3 or higher where the FM is even more useless.


I don’t think there is any reason it needs to go up. Why do the Russian aircraft with equivalent missiles (R-24 - 60MK ) that are usable in all aspects.

They sit at 11.3 and if you want to play the radar game with the MiG-23 you get a radar set that’s not on a visible spectrum in addition to true LD radar.

I see no reason to think that the F-4 family is balanced in comparison to what Russia has sitting in the same BR range.

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But we all know the Soviet stuff needs hand-holding.

Mig-23MLD should probably be 11.7 (especially in Sim). But it wont ever go up in BR.

Im leaning ever more towards the British Phantoms needing a BR drop to 11.0 or the FGR2 needs 9Ls. They just cant compete anymore


It is a fact that Gaijin has denied AIM-9L’s on British phantoms because they would have to go up

That statement was said a while ago and especially before the AIM-9L nerfs. I should also mention that the F-4 and especially the FG.1 and FGR.2 are flying bricks. All those pros I mention 100% make up and boost the performance of the Tornado F.3 compared to the Phantom UKs.

Oh I agree there fully. England and France are abandoned in nearly all regards and get totally crapped on. They don’t really have much over the F-4C.


I have to disagree, the UK currently have one of the best fighters in-game. The Gripen is excellent and was 100% a must get for the UK TT. Maybe prior to the addition of that I’d agree but for now UK is a decent nation.

The mobility and firepower of the Challenger 3 TD also helps the Ground Force

One fighter that was added as a consolation prize after a lot of complaints. The rest of the TT - especially in top tier is very lacking. The last generation of top tier and it was entirely incapable after nerfing.

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The rest of the TT - especially in top tier is very lacking. The last generation of top tier and it was entirely incapable after nerfing

Thing with this statement is that the UK has a good load of 10.7 - 9.3 aerial vehicles, the Harrier GR.3 is one of my favourite and sits very well at 9.3, the Sea Harrier FRS.1 is pretty decent and the AIM-9Ls at 10.7 makes it pretty useable, the Tornado F.3 is a solid choice if played correctly and the Harrier GR.7 can be a monster in its constant down tiers.

Furthermore my main grinder for the UK TT for rank VIII is currently the Phantom FG.1 with a talisman, it does pretty well and with the combination of bombs, 4 SARH missiles and 4 heat it makes it a excellent grinder.

I currently believe no TT is falling behind drastically in Air RB as of right now

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I half agree…

This is something I totally avoid because I play SB not RB most of the time… but…

The few times i’ve played RB recently. I have always been uptiered.

Hunter FGA9, Hutner F6, Lightning F6, Sea-Vixen, Sea Harrier FRS1 and Tornado F3. 99% of my matches were uptiered.

I think I had 1 match in the lightning and 1 match in the Tornado F3 not uptiered and it destroys. Not flown the Gr7 of late (and I personally think 9Ms were a HUGE mistake) but id expect to fight against nothing but Su-27s, F-16Cs and Gripens. an enviroment where I doubt Id survive long.

Its ultimately a compression issue, but doesnt change the fact that these aircraft are often fighting well above their weight (FGR2 vs F-15A is not a fight id want to deal with, its hard enough in the F3 where you have powerful BVR potential)

Speaking of SB though. The FGR2 and FG1 are currently 10.7 and feel perfectly balanced at that BR. They dont dominate, in fact did an uptier match tonight (because britain technically has no 11.3 fighter aircraft for SB currently so forced to use the FG1), and well… not a lot you can do vs a Mig-23MLD. They just out power you. Gone are the days where PD was this all powerful tool, the FGR2/FG1s radar barely works half the time to actually guide a skyflash onto target and thats just assuming the Skyflash is in the mood

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I disagree but that’s also not really the point of this thread either.

I think the F-4 is notably an underperforming aircraft in terms of flight performance (due to its high drag primarily). The platform itself was fairly effective. It does seem slightly handicapped when we have planes from another nation that do get quite a few all aspects at the same and lower BRs.

I would like to see what difference this would make in reality. For example the F-4S literally only has the distance for radar and the AIM-7 as a competitive feature vs the ML. We aren’t rushing to uptier that. The MiG-21s can absolutely be a menace.

I think there’s room to give each operator better missiles for these aircraft without truly disrupting the balance.

Yeah, I was hoping that patch was going to fix the AIM-7 issues - just barely changed it from 90deg turns to 30deg turns lol.

Hunter FGA9, Hutner F6, Lightning F6, Sea-Vixen, Sea Harrier FRS1 and Tornado F3. 99% of my matches were uptiered

This is more due to those BRs being more played than others, an example would be 9.3 Ground getting near constant 10.3 matches due to the Leopard 2A4 spam. When I was grinding France with my 9.3 AMX-30 Super I got near constant up tiers which nearly drove me insane.

It does seem slightly handicapped when we have planes from another nation that do get quite a few all aspects at the same and lower BRs

I do agree with it being slightly handicapped and would be open for the addition of AIM-9Ls and a possible flight performance change if necessary.

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I’d rather leave the flight performance alone. It’s about as realistic as it needs to be. It wasn’t the all agile plane unfortunately. As much as I love the aircraft it was an actual brick with jet engines.

Honestly it really depends on each Phantom in question, as some are indeed just less capable while others are more so let down by how players use them rather than a flaw with the plane (in particular those who bomb bases in the F-4S), though while you could try argue for the AIM-9L, the AIM-9M should not be a consideration with how capable it is, since you need to keep in mind many of the F-4’s have at best use the AIM-9J/P or AIM-9G which are far less capable, with how capable the AIM-9M is, it would guarantee any F-4 that gets them would go up in br and would cause more issues than solve them

Also while I didn’t come here to call anyone out, @Calerid I really doubt you went into this without thinking this fully through, though the reason I say this may not be what you think, since you mentioned making a suggestion for the F-4F ICE, which if you did make in the suggestion section well clearly you didn’t go through the suggestion rules or didn’t bother looking at what was already suggested… because you cannot make a F-4F ICE suggestion as it was already made last year which if you haven’t read the suggestion rules you are not allowed to make suggestions of the same vehicle for the same nation if the suggestion has already been made, hence why the previously suggested list exist as the F-4F ICE is under passed for consideration for previously suggested German aircraft. That is however is the main reason why I doubt you went into this without fully thinking it through, the other is the fact you brought up the AIM-9M makes me feel you really don’t understand how big of an improvement it is over the AIM-9L let alone the massive difference between what your average Phantom has compared to that.

I’m not really sure your reading comprehension is there buddy. I didn’t suggest the F-4 ICE, I made a comment about it being passed on for consideration…

The AIM-9M is not the superior missile everyone makes it out to be. Ironically I have considerably more success with off angle shots and chaff with the 9L than with the 9M. It’s IRCCM capabilities have been drastically reduced.

The Germany would do pretty well to get the 9M, as it would finally make it competitive to some degree. Especially the event one lol. For the US I would be happy to see the F-4S and F-4J get it. The F-15 is still getting down tiers against non M carrying aircraft consistently. There’s not really an argument forcing the 11.3 aircraft to go any higher than 11.7.

I see you have strong opinions though.

Aim-9M is probably too high for the F4 (assuming the Aim is to keep them at or around 11.3) But 9L should be fine. At least for the trucks. F-4S with the slats, is probably fine without currently.

(and I really dont want to be fighting Mig-23MLDs with R-73 at 11.3)

But yeah, im a tad disappointed by 9Ms, though they are totally unfinished, should have massively greater lock ranges to start. But thats a topic for another thread.

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