F-15A is in such a weird place

Machinery of War Discussion Aircraft
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I CANT DO IT ANYMORE!!!

before you all accuse me of being a noskill F4S bomber who just got his F-15, like many think all US mains are, I grinded my USA techtree to top tier several years ago, my first time playing at top tier was when the F-4E was facing the MIG-21, without using any premiums (other than the P-51D-20). I think I’ve more than earned my stripes and right to give constructive criticism at top tier. Please be productive on this post rather than just accusing me of being a no skill. Thanks.

The F-15A and its weaponry need some major changes if Gaijin wants them to be relevant in a productive way (not just IR furball brain rot gameplay) going forward. The way the F-15A is played right now is so backwards. Rather than its IRL role as a BVR Radar Missile slinging air-superiority fighter, its position in the game has been relegated to being a second-rate fighter at an awkward battle rating only held afloat by its IR missiles. I believe it is this way because the way the F-15A was implemented is fundamentally wrong. I will split this reading into 3 main sections. Will be a little bit ranty, but not horribly so.

  1. F-15A as it stands now is in a super awkward place. The AIM-9Ms are the only thing that really keeps it afloat at 12.3. By this point in the game, flight performance is nigh-useless because of the presence in high quantities of strong air to air missiles. This leads to an odd balancing situation where the AIM-9M should not go below 12.3 on a plane that has this good of flight performance, but at the same time the plane itself is not very good without the AIM-9M (I have been playing up to this point with the AIM-9L.)

  2. Sparrow is practically useless because of unrealistic multipathing combined with the slow speed at which it travels. This gives opponents ample time to react to the Sparrow, and makes it way too easy for them to hide against the ground, whereas in real life the M variant Sparrow (and skyflashes too) has an inverse-monopulse seeker which uses polarity of radar returns to effectively filter out multipath propagation. Many sources already submitted by other players reflect this fact, search “multipathing” on the (Community Bug Reporting System) to see for yourself.

BR CHANGE SOLUTIONS

I think that the best solution for this issue would be for the F-15A to go down to 12.0, lose the AIM-9M, (replace with AIM-9L, replace current AIM-9L mod with AIM-9J) and for multipathing to be made to have less of an effect on missiles with inverse monopulse seekers. This would bring it in line with its counterpart, the F-16, which already has a similar loadout, similar caliber of flight performance, and is balanced at 12.0. Many people in the past have told me that the F-15A would be unbalanced at 12.0, but the F-16A’s existence and balance at this BR exists as proof to the contrary of that point. The F-15A would essentially be a much heavier F-16A with two more Sparrows.

This should also be accompanied by the removal of the R-27ER/ET from the SU-27S now that the SU-27SM is confirmed to be coming to the game. The R-27ER/ET is a better missile kinematically than even the early AIM-120 variants also confirmed to be coming to the game. For this reason I think it is reasonable to remove it from the early 4th generation bracket, especially since the SU-27S would retain the R-73. This change should also extend to the MIG-29 (9-12 and 9-13). This would give the Russians something to tip the scales in their favor at close range, while the scales are in the favor of NATO at long range. SU-27S could also be moved down to 12.3, since it would still retain the ability to carry 6 R-27R missiles along with 4 IRCCM R-73s.

Alternatively, the previous loadout changes could happen, but the F-16A and MIG-29 (9-12 and 9-13) could be moved up to 12.3, as well as the SU-27S being moved down to 12.3. This removes the issue of older third-gen jets such as the F-4E and MIG-23M having to face 12.0 F-15A and SU-27S. This would, however, need to be accompanied by either decompression of top tier to at least 13.3, or the implementation of a BR wall (much like the one that existed between 9.7 and 10.0 in 2020) between 12.3 and 12.7 to isolate the AMRAAM/ALAMO carrying aircraft from their older counterparts that would not be able to compete.

I do not just want the US to be OP, because that is not fun. But, at the same time, it is not fun for me to hop in my favorite aircraft and get stomped because my weapons suck compared to what else is out there. I almost feel like I have to play my Russian jets to do good in this game now. I want the game to be balanced, so that when I die I can know it was because the other guy was better. On the other side of the coin, I want my kills to feel rewarding, like a show of skill, rather than the way it is now where one nation has a clear weaponry advantage over the other.

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No,…
Currently the flight model of F-15A is already overperforming any current 12.3, let alone 12.0,… the F-15A can see ennemies down to 11.3, which it completely outclass, let alone 11.0 aircrafts feom your proposition.

I currently have the F-15A and played it only a few game, but i see the potential of the aircraft, even without the 9M,…

Imaging being stock with 2x9L and killing (with gun) 2xSu-27 foes, having nothing but flares(no chaffs).

One of which fired a R-27ER which missed me because of how the aircraft can fly.

I’m currently holding 14games for 14 kills, and died only 9 times.

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Flight performance simply doesn’t matter at those high tiers, even at 11.3, because everyone has strong missiles (AIM-7F, R-24R, R-60M, AIM9H) by that point. Flight performance only matters in the rare 1v1 that has basically become extinct at top tier due to third partying. Even if you want to make the flight performance argument, do not forget that the F-16 is already at 12.0 with better flight performance than the F-15A in every aspect but straightline speed.

If you killed two SU-27s with two AIM9Ls that is because those SU-27s are incompetent and were not flaring them. AIM-9L is fairly easy to flare. As for the R-27ER, he probably fired it at extreme range. That missile is a death sentence within 10 miles unless you are low enough to make it multipath or are able to notch it. You may have also just gotten lucky. With R-27ER launches I am about 35 hits for 40 launches.

If the F-15A had AIM-9L, even at 12.0, it would not be imbalanced. Even in a full downtier, other 12.0 aircraft on the enemy team would keep F-15As in check. Even if they did not, the whole point of a downtier is to give lower tier players a challenge. No one takes any issue with how an Me-262 can face a MIG-17 with A-A missiles, or how the early MIG-9 can face the F-86F-25. Full uptiers are meant to be hard for these aircraft at the bottom. That is also why the top of the bracket aircraft are limited in number in full uptiers. Don’t forget that an F-4J/S with PD radar, AIM-7F missiles, AIM-9H missiles, and good flight performance can also face 10.3 aircraft, and the F-4E can face 10.0s. The coin has two sides. As it stands now the F-15A always gets sucked up to 12.7 where it is wholly inferior against the SU-27 as it is now. It just makes more sense for it to be at 12.0 with reduced weapon capability. From a historical standpoint (the opponents it faces) and a balancing standpoint.

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Wow this is some seriously good bait. Props to you.

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Really? Denying the game, and denying Decennies of Technology Imprivements to get the BEST aircrafts in EVERY way possible, and so Flight performances are important.

lol, ok,… makes differences between life and death, but yeah sure let’s say you’re right for a second

And Here’s why i know you’re wrong,…

It’s 12.0 because it have 9L, not 9M, and only two 7M’s,… not 4.

Also F-16 lightweight fighter
F-15 Heavyweight fighter

So when comparing to other but similar aircrafts:
Mirage 4000 → 12.3
Su-27 → 12.7 (obviously due to the number of Missile and Cobra HMD R-73)

R-E-A-D :

Not find yet?
I’ll help you:

Better now?

lol ok mate say that to F-4’s trying it all day, but dieing from my F-16’s when i’m downtiered.

9km away,… if 9km is extreme range, then i don’t know what is going on in the game.

Lucky me then

Sure you have it all figured it out that R-27ER currently is best missile in the game, yet, you also figure it out, that it’s not invicible.

lol, but no,… none of current 12.0 have the ability to overcome F-15 for about 85% of the game,… and most of the time 12.0 goes for 11.0 first because they’re easy kills.

It’s me in F-15, with you in what?

wanna take a try in your F-4E?
Oh! Maybe you prefer to use a J-8B?
Or JA-37C?
Or MiG-21bis?

Ah!!! I know !
Let me present to you the mighty, extremely colorful, and legendary widow maker:
F-104S (disclaimer, this is not even the ASA variant, so you do not have access to: Aspide missiles and AIM-9L)
Enjoy AIM-7E2(or Gun) and AIM-9J mate, because i’m 100% certain, that you’re gonna pop F-15 ass in that aircraft.

It is like that since the game decided that BR compression = Money of frustrated player.

Have you not have your premium account YET? (yeah, you have to pay, because i don’t really do that personnally, so buy for 2, okay?)

Well F-4’s are not maneuvrable and missiles aren’t as developped, especially the all-aspect side of modern missile which are a game changer.(and i didn’t even talked about 9M IRCCM, yet. Oh shit i’ve just done it now)

It is not as inferior as would be an F-4E vs that F-15,… (oh, i should have talked about F-104S, hum? Oops nevermind, it already done,…)

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Just speaking the truth, when has flight performance ever realistically made a difference in a missile duel?

Yeah lmao, life and death in one out of 100 games, hardly something to balance off of

isn’t that exactly what i’m saying should happen to the F-15? that it should have 9L and not 9M? Also by your logic, since 4 sparrows makes a plane 12.0, shouldn’t the F-4S be 12.0?

Don’t see how this factors into the BR

So move the M4K down to 12.0 too. Problem Solved.

You clearly didn’t read. I also said to move the SU27 down to 12.0 or 12.3 along with taking its ER/ET.

What’s the point of mentioning you have stock AIM-9Ls when you killed them with the gun? Also, clearly the Su27 players were incompetent/distracted to lose to an F-15 with only a gun, like you say they did. Not something to base BR changes off of.

The mostly premium F-4 players are stupid and don’t know how to flare missiles? Who would have thought? I dodge AIM-9Ls easily all the time. As long as you arent showing them your afterburning tailpipe and aren’t giving them a trail of constant flares that leads right to your engine they are super easy to dodge.

Okay… So what I’m hearing is you got lucky with an R-27ER once and notched the radar. Good job…

Lucky is another way to describe it.

No missile is invincible. No missile has as disporportionately high of a kill probability as the R-27ER does either.

If you can’t kill an F-15A in an F-16A, Mirage 2000, or MIG-29 (9-12 or 9-13) then you are the issue, not the F-15.

Perfect! Mop up the enemy 12.0s while they are distracted going for your 11.0s! Can be done in any plane…

Rough but your teammates can also help you. Top tier is practically never 1v1. Fly defensive, dont put yourself in the middle of the fray and you’ll be fine.

Definitely possible to beat the F-15 in this plane.

Same as F-4E.

It’s widely accepted that the F-104S is just a bad plane, even against its 11.0 compatriots. Sounds like that plane is in a place it shouldn’t be. Bad balancing decisions by Gaijin shouldn’t be impetus to allow for more bad balancing decisions.

Okay, well you try arguing for decompression then. We’ve only been trying for multiple years now. I’m just being realistic and not trying to argue for decompression I know won’t come.

Again, flight performance doesn’t matter 99% of the time.

7F is a copy-paste of the 7M, and the 9H is just a rear-aspect AIM-9L with a little less pull. Still very possible to get kills with them, as many people do right now against MIG29s and F-16s.

almost like you didn’t read. I suggested the best solution would be to raise top tier to 13.3 and put all these planes at 12.3. But you didn’t know that because you didn’t read. The F-16A also exists just fine at 12.0 with AIM 9 L and AIM 7 M. F-15A should also exist at 12.0 with AIM 9 L and AIM 7 M.

Please actually read the whole thing this time before you come out with some half-baked responses

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Ah yes, when perfectly reasonable balancing solutions for a plane that is in a place it shouldn’t be is bait. Weird logic dude.

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You know what place the F-15A should actually be? 12.7

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This is insanity. Hard no.

You are promoting and asking for severe artificial nerfs no thanks.

Artificial nerfs ruin this game.

Realism is unbalanced and fun.

Asking for the F-15A and Su-27S to lose their historical missiles?

What???

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Per simple interest to understand your PoV, i have just checked on your account :

Start by checking the whole TOP USA jets you’ve been playing, in RB modes, so for everyone reading the thread, here it is:

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and some aircrafts here, got me questions to myself:
F-16A Blk.10 Air-Air Kill-Death Ratio at : 0.743
F-16A ADF Blk.15 Air-Air Kill-Death Ratio at : 1.647
F-16C Air-Air Kill-Death Ratio at : 0.386
(and this one have same missile as F-15, so why you’re not good in it, as you claimed F-16 Flight model is superior to F-15 one)
F-15A Air-Air Kill-Death Ratio at : 0.438
F-4E Air-Air Kill-Death Ratio at : 1.241
F-4J Air-Air Kill-Death Ratio at : 1.295
F-5E Air-Air Kill-Death Ratio at : 0.941

so i was shocked that most of of your aircraft had AA-KD rates under 1.000, apart those Phantoms and the F-16A ADF (impressive 1.6+ KD when reading all other aircrafts)

Btw, your Air-Air KD on Su-27 stands at 1.232
(hopefully 35/40 R-27ER hit their targets, what would have been if only 50% did hit [answer : 1.046 KD])

In the meantime, here’s my own USA stats on Rank 7/8:

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F-16A Blk.10 Air-Air Kill-Death Ratio at : 2.630 (+1.887 than you)
F-16A ADF Blk.15 Air-Air Kill-Death Ratio at : 1.44 (-0.207 than you)
F-15A Air-Air Kill-Death Ratio at : 1.555 (but i agree it doesn’t mean a lot out of 15 games)
F-4E Air-Air Kill-Death Ratio at : 1.685 (+0.444)
F-5E Air-Air Kill-Death Ratio at : 3.173 (+2.232)

Even those :
A-7D [3.100 KD]
A-10A Late [2.571]
F-8E [2.986]
of mine have better ratios than your best F-16 (which is F-16A ADF)

in such i wanted to know why you’re so fierce to call on something that isn’t even OP in your own hands,…
and i got my answer,… you’re playstyle is either not-adapted, or you doesn’t even care to learn how to play the game,…

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You know this isn’t even the missile right?

You do realize it is just the player base?

If this community would learn that flying low to the ground makes you immune to fox 1s and that the 27ET can be one flared NOBODY would be whining about them.

But you know what? This community suffers from players that are unwilling to learn but are professional whiners so please change your playstyle.

The R-27ER/R may be overperforming but it it just as easy to counter as any other Fox 1.

Ridiculous.

I do not mean to slap you or be rude but this suggestion and or post is just a perfect representation of the bad side of this community.

Maybe you should quit playing RB and try sim because there you can truly enjoy any and all aircraft and you would probably have an easier and way more fun time there as it is not call of duty with fighter jets.

Not saying you are a bad player but theres clearly a lot of knowledge you lack about how to use these aircraft so you have a lot of room to improve and if this was not true you would never have made this post.

Best of luck but this post is unacceptable and unnecessary.

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Wrong

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Historical loadouts is exactly what I’m asking for. Make these aircraft use their mid ‘80s load outs like they actually would have.

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The multipath flying low to the ground and you people that encourage it are the bad part of this community. Not me. You probably are the same people that enjoy 16v16 IR missile hell as well. This game has been so bad since they added the R-27ER and then had to do the stupid multipathing change instead of just removing that missile. It’s been a domino effect of stupid decisions ever since the 27ER was added. If I could do it all over again I would happily take the MIG29 (9-13) with R-73s and no ERs back in the air superiority patch and avoided the ER and all of the problems trying to keep it in the game has caused.

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I really do not care about your statistics. It’s stupid argument that every WT player tries to pull out when they cannot make an actual argument. I do not play the F-16C outside of ground battles because top tier IR missile fireball gameplay is just not fun. In fact, most of those aircraft I have low K/D in are aircraft that I do not play often. This game at top tier has deteriorated from a somewhat realistic air combat game to a worse Ace Combat. As for the ER, I meant to say 35/40 launches at viable targets, instead of people jusy trying to multipath which in my opinion is just a stupid crutch for unskilled players that should be removed. Balancing should be done by adjusting load outs and BRs themselves, not adding arbitrary and unrealistic mechanics like the way multipathing is right now.

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How are you asking for historical loadouts by removing the 9M from the eagle and removing the r27s from the flanker?

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Bro this game is completely balanced.

I do not play RB so I do not participate in the odd arcade 16v16 fetish.

I play air to enjoy the aircraft I am passionate about and in sim it is as balanced as can be.

If you die it is because you did not pay attention or yet have a lot to learn or because you genuinely made a mistake.

There is NO other excuse except for these.

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Never said all R-27s, just the ER/ET. Early flanker should have the early load out of the R-27R/T and R-73. F-15A was the variant that existed at the same time as the early F-16s. It actually used AIM-9Js and AIM-7Fs early in its career, then switched to the 9L and 7M later. I think that early equipment set should be represented and the AIM-9M should be left to complement the AIM-120 on the F-15C.

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What I’m hearing is that you’re arguing for sim when I’m arguing for RB. I’m suggesting changes which would make RB more realistic and balanced. I have no issue with the way SIM is. You’re arguing for the orange while I’m arguing for the apple. I hate the 16v16 shit just as much as you do, but I don’t feel like I should have to pull out my joystick and throttle just to get a decent gameplay loop. That’s what DCS is for. Thus, the RB meta needs to be drastically reworked.

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Ok I understand your point but it would affect sim too you know.

Also I play and enjoy sim 110% just on mouse and keyboard.

I understand where you are coming from but I guess I am defensive because I am protecting my dear sim gamemode.

I am sure there is something else that can fix this though, that does not require loadout adjustments.

Wasn’t 6v6 announced for ARB?