The F-106, AIM-97 (its basically an Air launched SM-1[RIM-66], with an IR seeker) & HMD are sitting in the wings waiting warmly, assuming the AWG-9 & AIM-54 prove inadequate, or never get fixed.
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when was this?
I want whatever the USAF was smoking circa 1974.
Spoiler
Bootleg VTAS?? + IRST + AIM-4 (No proximity fuse, and almost certainly couldn’t utilize VTAS as the missiles was stored internally on their interceptor.
AIM-9J + AIM-7E2 on their F4 with no look-down capability.
“Hmm? Let’s not integrate anything the navy has been working on and make 2 new missiles.”
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AIM-82 and AIM-97 start to be developed, and are promptly canceled.
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Meanwhile the Navy makes the AIM-95 AGILE and already has the AIM-54 Phoenix, both of which blow anything you can make out of the water in every aspect. (AIM-95 is canceled because it is too expensive, screw you Congress)
“Uhh, well let’s see here. It is now ~1977 and we have”:
- Joint Service AIM-9L, Joint Service AIM-7F, no further developments for AIM-4 or F106, F-15 just entered service with the USAF’s first Pulse-Doppler radar.
Meanwhile, the Navy has:
- Joint Service AIM-9L, Joint Service AIM-7F, Brand new and wildly successful AIM-54, and F-14A is already ~5 years old with the Navy’s second Pulse-Doppler radar and Track-While-Scan functionality.
How was the Navy so much further ahead than the Air Force? Did the Air Force forget what Air Superiority means?
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Considering The F-102 / F-106 was intended to go after Soviet Jet bombers it was less of an issue since all it was really supposed to do was intercept near defenseless targets, so taking a little bit more time to kill the bombers was a worth trade off And that the Falcon / Super Falcon prioritized performance at altitude, and with non-maneuvering targets lacking a proximity fuze, and using Nuclear warheads is less of an issue.
The F-4E did leave (ANG) service in '92 armed with the AIM-9M and AIM-7F
The F-110A (USAF borrowed F-4B) and early F-4C’s retained the AN/AAA-4 IRST, and the F-4E eventually received the AN/ASX-1 TISEO, so they did have Look Down sensor capability to some degree. Further, Semi-Automatic (BST, HOJ & AOJ etc.) and Manual illumination modes / work arounds did exist for Sparrow employment which aren’t modeled in game so it was less of an issue IRL.
The F-4C, -4D and -4G traded the Sensors away for TACAN / RHAW gear so had a significantly better chance at surviving a SAM encounter as they would be more likely to detect a threat, as was the major issue at the time.
The F-4E used the Chin station for the Gun so moved the sensor to the wing root.
It probably comes down to Clarity of Purpose, the USAF had to manage a ton of disparate commands (Frontline Airforce, Bomber command, Homeland defense, Reserves, Tankers, Tactical and Strategic Airlift, Reconnaissance, etc.), and had a lot more airframes on the go at any one time, and also the fact that The Navy had a keen eye and tended to stick with solutions and iteratively refine them, also cribbing Airforce homework often payed off (Technically the AWG-9 and AIM-54 are descendants of the USAF’s AN/ASG-18 and GAR-9(eventually became the AIM-47) development which were of spun off the LRI-X program which were to arm the prospective F-108, which was to pair with the XB-70, basically they ended up being part of the F-111B as a Joint platform and eventually going on to arm the F-14 ).
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Although the AWG-9 had a longer range and TWS, the APG-63 was more modern than the AWG-9, it was a digital radar that could be easily upgraded and found and tracked targets better. The AWG-9 radar was easy to confuse. And AIM-54 missiles were not very suitable for destroying fighters.
Mr. GILLEAS: Can you discuss in open session the dogfight capability of the Phoenix, as to the minimum capable ranges it has in a dogfight?
Mr. K. RICHARDSON: For the Phoenix missile? Sir, I cannot do that in an open session. I would be privileged to do so later.
Mr. GILLEAS: How would you rebut an allegation on the floor, if somebody says it is not usable for close-in combat, and that it is strictly a long-range standoff missile?
Mr. K. RICHARDSON: My only chance to refute that in an open session is to say, sir; that it is not true. And I would supply the data, which is classified, to indicate that it is not so. It is quite useful in close-in encounters.
(The information follows:)
The Phoenix missile has been designed to cope with a wide variety of targets under many attack conditions. For dogfights the missile has the following enhancing features:
- An excellent warhead with a large lethal zone.
- A well-proven self-contained proximity fuze.
- A unique and novel guidance system which is independent of the F-14 after launch (permitting launch-and-leave for engagement of another target).
- High maneuverability.
For close-in attacks against maneuvering fighters, the minimum launch range will be about twice that of other comtemporary radar missiles, because the rocket motor has been optimized for long range performance. The resulting firing envelope provides a formidable kill capability in most dogfights.
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Assuming that the contemporary is the Sparrow, of which the minimum range is ~3200ft. Approximately ~1/2 Nmi [~989m], twice that isn’t actually that far at all, though i would doubt it would have great ability to sustain AoA immediately off the rail, and very much rely on the very large warhead & proximity fuse
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So why is it still at 17G’s 🤔
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Two things, first the Phoenix is broken, obviously, second fighters in game (and the pilots in them) can sustain a lot more Gs than their IRL counterparts. The F-16 IRL can’t, under ANY circumstances, pull more than 9Gs because of its FBW limit. In game though it can do 14Gs if it’s low enough on fuel. The phoenix, even if given it’s IRL performance, will still be worse simply because planes in game are more maneuverable than their irl counterparts
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That’s probably the same case for a lot of missiles in-game as well
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Speaking of missiles, can’t find the Sparrow topic but it was shot from an F-15 so here it goes. The sparrow chose to go for the guy behind me rather than the hot target in front. Smashing things with the 27ER gets boring but if this is the alternative I think ill go back to the Su27. Sparrows have been broken for the better part of 2 years now
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Probably yeah, I think the 20-25G class of missiles are disadvantaged the hardest by that. Anything under you can outpull anyways, anything over is probably gonna hit
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Ok so I just got back into the F-15 after a minute…
The f-15 having lower wing loading than the su27 rips under the slightest roll and pitch & any negative G. The Su27 not nearly as bad. Not even close. They actually reduced it, made the Flanker much more playable. Ripping is almost nonexistent. But not the F-15.
The F-15 was more designed for high-speed combat, along with its amazing pitch (modelled really well in game). However, to watch its rip its wings much easier than the gigantic, very thin su27’s wings armed with a tons of missiles hanging from its wings is a little heart breaking.
You know, at first it was funny that GJ did this to the US, its phantoms and crusader. Nice cruel joke by making players die simply from basic flying.
But doing this to the F-15 is a little bit much. I really hope they at least make them equal to the su27.
None of these jets should be ripping as easy. They are all highly aerodynamically perfected designs over the previous generation.
It’s really lame that GJ has these mechanics intentionally affecting US top tier fighters still.
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It’s an instructor issue. I still have yet to be able to rip the wings with pure elevator input in full real control
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Good to know. I really feel for those who can only play the US line and F-15. Not cool.
Its kind of a difficult problem to look at. Mouse aim is inherently a FBW system which results in exaggerated movement from all control surfaces. The aircraft is modeled to have real-ish G-tolerance. Combine this with poor performance from servers or people’s connection, the combination can result in instantaneous overloads that are detrimental to gameplay.
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They fixed it with the Su27. It was ripping just as much at release.
I do not see how they cannot for the F-15. I believe its intentional and they need to chill.
The thing is the F-15 rips in the slightest inputs that consist of negative Gs. It’s not ever ripping in actual dogfights. All my deaths have been in regular basic flight and basic repositioning or evading a missile.
I don’t know, I guess it’s just a real unfortunate coincidence that just only happens to US fighters, time and time again.
It’s the mouse aim virtual instructor throwing the rudder in full deflection when doing a roll. I personally prefer the idea that the player should take this into account instead. Otherwise they will ‘nerf’ the roll rate so that you won’t overload the wings. I discussed this on the forum with a tech mod. I’ll post the thread if you want.
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No need bro. But thanks for the follow up.
Whatever the issue “is” does not affect the Su27 anymore. How weird.
Its just a basic PR statement to keep the jet in a nerfed state imo. I’ll just go back to the Su27.
Oh, hey check out the F-16C & D doing really good now with the ACM update. love it.
cheers.
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Yea… it’s a little bit unfortunate…
I just use the free look and my keyboard to move around. It’s most vulnerable around 950 kph. Managed to pull 15/16G’s when doing a roll and a pitch moment according to wt live stats. All while the instructor doing massive rudder inputs. Wing go bye bye.
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