Ok that one makes envious
I do not want to go to deep into this, but UK EF can carry max 6 ASRAAM and 4 AMRAAM/METEOR. So yea, it will be hard to intercept all this.
odd argument when both aircraft can carry the same amount of missiles…
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i have not seen anything about german EF carrying 6 irist. I have seen max 4. If it can then it is my mistake
is there a picture of the British one carrying 6 asraams?
thats not what i asked for…
also
spanish EF but with double rail and IRIS-T…
it also doesnt really matter. I’ve said it before, the eurofighters are wired up the same and have the necessary wiring and mechanical interfaces to carry missiles on every single one of the wing pylons.
They’re both able to carry the same missile loads, hence why I said it would likely be a draw into a guns only merge or a mutual kill.
If both carry the same number of Meteors and both carry the same number of SRIRAAM’s, and the German Typhoon is able to reliably intercept incoming missiles with the IRIS-T, theres no reason to think either aircraft has a particularly notable advantage.
Realistically, as I mentionned before, the German Typhoon likely has the advantage during the BVR stage where Meteors are being fired, as it can choose to use IRIS-T’s to intercept said meteor’s to remain more offensive, or can hold on to meteors and fire them at closer ranges, increasing their pK%.
When it comes to the ASRAAM range, the British Eurofighter would have the advantage, as it could outrange the IRIS-T, assuming the German Eurofighter didn’t use them to be more aggressive during the meteor slinging phase and the brit didn’t die to a more aggressive german typhoon launching Meteors at shorter ranges with higher pK%'s, and force the german defensive.
So in effect, the discussion as to which aircraft wins just comes down to how the BVR phase played out, before the ASRAAM even came into use.
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If the german used IRIS-T to augment its position during the BVR stage of the fight, it will either shoot down the brit before they get into ASRAAM range, or fail to do so and be shot down by an ASRAAM after having used up its IRIS-T
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If the german didnt use IRIS-T to improve its chance during the BVR stage (or if were ignoring the meteor slinging stage entirely) the german will be on the defensive as it will be forced to spend its missiles defending against the ASRAAM.
If we consider it a purely ASRAAM vs IRIS-T fight, the british Typhoon has the advantage sure, but i’d bet on a draw into a guns only merge (IRIS-T intercepts all ASRAAM) or a mutual kill (last IRIS-T and last ASRAAM are both fired within range at the enemy aircraft) rather than “ASRAAM has more range so it wins automatically!!!”
I do not have a picture, but i gave this as a proof.
Have not seen this. Now i know.
Well, i get your point.
also the mechanical interface of missiles and other stores(like bombs or cruise missiles) are NATO standardised. Not so sure about the electrical interface but there are standards for that as well so for simplicity we can just assume that its also standardised. The only thing stopping you from strapping an aim-9x to the EF for example is the uncertainty of what will happen when you launch, jettison and carry the weapon and the software integration
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Well i get your point, indeed the IRIS-T is said to be able to shoot down ennemy missile.
Do you really think it has a PK of 100% for intercepting MACH 3 missile coming all over the place?
If a missile capable of intercepting other air to air missile was so effective, everyone would equip their figther of a lot of them. The ultimate air loadout would be 8 IRIS-T to get close and 2 Meteor to do the job.
The truth is probably that while the missile has some capabilities in intercepting air to air missile, it’s probably larger one (ie R-33/37; Phoenix) and still with only a small probability of succes.
It probably has a very niche utilisation on the battlefield and you shouldn’t take as granted the fact that your IRIS-T is going to intercept the ennemy missile.
You must be really ballsy if you think you can go aggresive again an ennemy slinging Meteor at you because your missile is going to intercept all of them (or ASRAAM in your other exemple).
Furthermore good luck tracking a missile falling on you with an IRST. If the missile is not burning anymore but just gliding toward you (in case of a very long range meteor shot or an Asraam shot) then your IRIS-T has to lock and manage to hit something that not very hot (just the friction from the AIR) as well as being really small.
DASS migth give him the general area of where the missile should be but then the IRIS-T still has to find it.
And DASS is probably going to give you a warning 5-15s before the missile hit your plane so you’ll have to decide if it’s worse to send an IRIS-T to examine and try to intercept the danger. In War thunder with missile flying everywhere, gl with that.
- I never spoke in absolutes, I said the fight would be a lot closer than people are making it out to be
- IRIS-T’s accuracy is high enough for the missile to literally store data onboard of known potential targets from various angles and target areas of highest potential pK% for it to target and hit.
- The fact it can be integrated into the Eurofighters Praetorian DASS system for automatic or semi-automatic missile defense is not something they’d bother spend money and time on developing if the missiles intercept chance weren’t high, and almost nobody uses large missiles for air to air roles like the R-33/37 which would make testing difficult and the integration largely pointless
- We know the IRIS-T uses an H-Infinity controller instead of the standard PID controller, which was done as it builds a more adaptive intercept path which better handles high numbers of variables, such as would be the case for intercepting very small high speed targets with low windows of opportunity
We’re talking capabilities vs capabilities here, and seeing as the IRIS-T has the definite disadvantage between the ASRAAM range and IRIS-T range, assuming the absolute fantasy scenario where neither eurofighter would back off at all and are in some no other variable 1v1 like this was being discussed, leveraging the missile intercept capability of the IRIS-T would be the only real option the german eurofighter would have. Its the difference between giving up from the start or taking a risk and maybe coming back home, not a particularly hard decision to make.
Meteor uses a throttleable ducted ramjet as an engine. The whole point of this is to use the ram air principle to offer thrust and to keep the motor burning as long as possible to maximize pK%. It is FUNDEMENTALLY different from the AMRAAM which is a boost-sustain or pure boost motor with trajectory shaping to maximize range, and as such is unlikely to actually be “falling on you” like an AMRAAM or AIM-54 might.
As for the capability to even find the target, IIR missiles like the IRIS-T, 9X, and ASRAAM have already proven their capability at hitting small targets with little heat sources, such as yanno, balloons and small drones. Your VASTLY underestimating the capability of modern imaging seekers. Friction of the air above Mach would be a piece of cake for these missiles, and is literally one of the primary concepts behind using stuff like PIRATE for tracking stealth aircrafts.
Once again, underestimating modern IIR seekers. Also, the missile defense can afaik be set to either act in a semi-automatic fashion (warns of threat and asks permission to fire missile) or fully automatic (identifies threat and fires missile for intercept if identified as being the jets highest chance of survival). The fully automatic concept is actually one of the whole points of the Praetorian DASS, seeing as its to reduce pilot workload in a high stress and fast paced environment. If the system decides missile to missile intercept is the best/only choice, it would do so.
In WT, no matter what it is it’ll be implemented like trash or not at all, seeing as gaijin devs literally go against multiple primary or secondary sources on western capabilities wholly on the basis of them “not believing” them. That’s why the AIM-54C is currently a pile of garbage, its why SARH missiles perform worse than their stated capabilities, its why the 9L is weaker to flares than it should be, its why the stinger and ATAS are atrocious, etc…
Isn’t that pretty much a standard feature of modern IIR missiles, not something particularly special?
Not afaik, but could be wrong.
The difference as I understand it is modern IIR missiles typically maximize hit probability, IRIS-T maximizes kill probability
You can actually see what I mean with this video in which it shows the AIM-9X’s seeker feed where it appears to be simply targeting center mass, but that’s simply my interpretation, so you can take what you want from it:
I thought most modern weapon systems targetted the cockpit. I could have sworn I remember something about at least the Aim-9X being programmed to do that at least.
Also note the “00” date on that. So that footage is from the 26th of September 2000. So before the missile even entered service.
It’s on everything most likely. I’ve spoken to a RAF Typhoon pilot at an air show and he talked about the weapons. The way he described it to me for the ASRAAM, is that the IR seeker is trained to differentiate the target from counter measures by examining the profile/outline of the target and comparing it to what it thinks the target should look like.
The ASRAAM can also be programmed to target specific parts of the airframe, like engines/cockpit/etc.
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Well at the very least ASRAAM and AIM-9X have it (source):
ASRAAM - developed for the UK Royal Air Force and Royal Navy and ordered by Australia - and the AIM-9X - developed for the US forces - share a common Raytheon developed imaging infrared (I²R) seeker with a 180° field of view. I²R has greater sensitivity and, unlike earlier seekers, can distinguish between the target and countermeasures such as flares, and even between different parts of the aircraft allowing aim point selection when coupled with suitable signal processing. Aim point selection allows the missile to target a specific point on the aircraft rather than heading for the hottest spot, usually the jet pipe. Many aircraft have limped home with damaged exhausts and a tail peppered with shrapnel. The technique also allows for different types to be attacked in different locations. “Type A” may be best defeated by a hit close to the intake, whereas “Type B” will most likely be destroyed by a strike at the wing root. In short, missile miss distances have moved from an area around the aircraft to one on the aircraft, says an industry source.
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It might sound rude, but it seems like instead of us overestimating ASRAMM you are underestimating anything that is not IRIS-T
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I never said you were overestimating ASRAAM tho… nor have I ever said it or any other not IRIS-T is bad, nor have I even said IRIS-T is the best.
The initial point made was that the brit typhoon would win cuz asraam has more range than IRIS-T, then i pointed out its likely a lot closer of a fight since IRIS-T can intercept missiles, then someone started saying they doubt IRIS-T can even do that with anything the size of an AAM, then i pointed out reasons as to why it likely can rather reliably.
Even if the ASRAAM is better in every way to the IRIS-T, as long as either (or both) of the aircrafts have the ability to intercept the others missiles, the fight will tend towards a draw into a guns only merge, or a mutual kill.
I don’t understand why you guys feel like I’m attacking the british typhoon or pretending the IRIS-T is some god missile or something. Your entire argument against me rests on a strawman.
I even prefaced the comment you’re replying to with “Not afaik, but I could be wrong” and was then proven wrong (which I’m happy to have learned from) by @Flame2512