Its not the only time a project has or almost burned becasue Dassault was greedy and impossible to work with thats all im saying before certain people come out of the woodwork.
I agree with the sentiment about F-35 potentially doing better than F-22 however i think this is more the case for exported F-35s that use meteor, ASRAAM and IRIS-T over AIM-9X and AIM-120D having better tools at their disposal. But this requires gaijin to accept that the russian tree will fall behind rather aggressively as they dont have anything that even compares to such monstrous tech and model them right
before the buff? I would get reliable 1.2km hits if the target wasnt turning and firing from 400m quite far off boresight was pretty reliable if they were subsonic and you were using the hunter (so not firing them slower than 550mph on the crappy FM of harriers)
That’s not what happened tho. France themselves had specific requirements, mainly the carrier landing and nuclear carrying capabilities, and Germany especially was not willing to participate in the development of an aircraft that fit these conditions. The consortium was at a deadlock hence why France left the project at the time.
The more recent FCAS troubles is also not just Dassault being willfull. The project architecture and chain of responsibilities being changed right in the middle with the addition of Spain is what brought the project to an end, as Dassault felt they couldn’t fulfill their roll as an architect with Airbus having 2/3rd of the votes (and yes, Airbus defence spain is closer to a subsidiary of airbus defence germany). Dassault decided to not compromise, as they initially agreed to let Airbus lead the other modules of the projects while they kept the lead on the plane itself, and so the project ended.
Now, Germany finds itself quite troubled as they don’t have the capabilities to build a plane by themselves (and even with sweden they can’t, as they lack the engine manufacturing part), and probably will have very limited say if they were to join the TEMPEST program (and let’s be honest, the german industrial complex and the government is just as willfull, if not more, than Dassault - just look at the Eurofighter; the reason it’s not exported as well as the rafale is because Germany refused to sell to Egypt, which led to the first rafale export, or the fact that Germany doesn’t want to do common upgrade with the other, like AMK, the different radar… leading to ballooning prices). Meanwhile France just greenlighted the develoment of the NGF (next gen fighter), with possibility to partner with other countries if possible.
Knowing them, they won’t buy if they can’t built in themselves, and they won’t build it themselves if they can’t have a say in how it’s built. And I honestly don’t think Britain and the other partners would be very happy to see Germany arrive in a project on tracks and (vaguely) on time just to have everything discussed over again, losing time and money for the project. After all, tempest will not be a US aircraft, and thus won’t come with the guaranties that made them buy the f35.
I feel like the Tempest on time delivery will be very important, especially if they are looking for export, as there’s quite a lot of projects aiming to do 6th gen by 2040 compared to the fewer propositions of 4.5th gen that we had 10 years ago, meaning that the first to operate such a jet will have a major advantage on the market. For now they seem to be among the most advanced on 6th gen, with the US and China, but if you throw German’s involvement in the mix, things would get… interesting at best
fair. germany couldnt be stupid and refuse the IRST thats already built in if they arent one on the main designers again.
the only garantees madeby being forced to buy F-35 was keeping nuclear weapon sharing with the US, and the US-everyone else relations have changed a lot as of late so the garantees arent garanteed right now. Despite EU related issues with the UK, britain, italy and japan are close reliable allies with germany and thats not going to change.
im so glad japan is part of this, if it was just the UK and Italy tempest wouldbe a 5th gen for 6th gen eras.
China wont export their Gen 6, USA might but it will be heavily diluted. Russia it is a real leap in capability they will get there with something that they class as 6th Gen.
Tempest has a real chance if all Stakeholders can cooperate.
Dassault have the right idea with the F.5 Rafale and offering it with the autonomous wing man system. Britain needs to go down this pathway to make the transition to Gen 6 and to prepare for that style of warfare.
I have read that the F-47 RCS and Emissions will be so low it will be incredibly difficult to detect. How do you detect something like that and then produce a firing solution. The theory behind Gen 6 air battles is facinating.
The few common projects between France and most other countries, including Italy and britain overall went well. However any major project with France and Germany seems to be destined to always fail. 2 hotheaded countries with very different needs don’t really make for great partnerships.
Meanwhile, it’s surprising that the UK did not try to go for a navalized EFT while France was part of the project. The QE class is technically convertible to a proper CATOBAR, but at the time the carrier came into service it wasn’t economical anymore. Would need a pretty massive redesign of the structure of the EFT to accommodate the landing gear, reinforce the structure… Britain also only operates nukes via their submarines so they did not have the same exact requirements as France, but it would have been much closer still
Guess it was all a timing issue in the end
just dont ask about jaguars export success. Torpedoed by the french to sell the mirage.
honestly im surprised we didnt either. by the point where typhoons design was almost fully done the UK govt had already decided to kill the harrier early (one of the many things the 1997-2007 govt screwed us on). We wouldnt have a replacement for Shar and GR5-9 until F-35 a decade after harrier was euthanised from service.
perfect storm of france being france, germany being germany and the uk turning into the yookay.
Russia doesn’t have the capability to make a 6th gen as of now imo. Between the sanctions that still limit their access to sensitive tech and their war economy more focused towards low cost equipment, i don’t think they are even in the race for 6th gen.
The US also lost a lot of thrust with it’s partner. I however don’t put China out of the race. They might very well be capable to export some 6th gen to some degree. It seems they have multiple prototypes as of now, so they might have more incentive to export some of them.
At this point, they should redesign the rafale with some internal bays and more refined VLO shapes, and it would basically be 5th gen.
for most stealth aircrafts (and ig f47 included), RCS is low in X band. We will probably see improvements in radar technology and probably longer waves, which will detect stealth aircrafts much easier. Nowadays computing power and radar tech has improved sufficiently to get probably get decent radar solutions on VLO targets despite the (on paper) less accurate band. Ground stations already operate radars in similar bands and apparently are much better at picking out stealth aircrafts than before
consider that the f47 will come with standarized 200+km range missiles. current gen IRST can have firing solution at around 100Km for a frontal jet in dry thrust at best (so with clear skies), so it’s not enough anymore.
The argument can totally be made with the f35, as the US don’t operate anything better than the AIM120D (and the f35 famously did not operate in bad weather for a significant time, hello “Lightning 2” which can’t handle lightning), but it’s harder to make a case for the F47
Egypt originally chose the EFT. Germany refused to sell, so they instead bought the Rafale.
While the rafale started getting better reputation due to being combat proven, the egyptian deal is the first rafale export and probably was a major factor in subsequent contracts being made
IRST requires very good atmospheric conditions. It is not reliable especially when you consider you might be able to see them but can you shoot them.
I see Gen 6 based on what I have read as a battle to stay undetected and that includes not using the Radar but using the autonomous wing men to scan and then like a team of Destroyers hunting a sub you need to find and triangulate absolute sensor fusion shared between the Gen 6 and the UCAVS.
It will not be like air combat is now, get high and fast and launch missiles from 150 miles away.
But its not like Spain jumped into the project out of nowhere. The new project architecture was agreed upon by the respective countries which really shows that the problem was how little pressure the french government could put on Dassault, because of their extraordinary importance for the french MIC. Pretty much any end would have been a win for Dassault.
Germany and Spain agree on giving Dassault bigger workshare → win Dassault
Project fails which means that France is going for national solution which of course heavily includes Dassault → win Dassault
France is never going to buy a non domestic fighter so Dassault was never in any danger should FCAS fail.
I wouldnt even necessarily say that but i would say that failed european cooperations in the aerospace sector seem to have one companies name come up more often than others.
When your plane cost as much as an f-35 over it’s life no wonder it does not export, add the fact of lying to your clients in the mix and the previous thing you said about how the upgrades were handled.
Gaijin thinks they’re real funny nerfing it into the dirt, and it’ll likely stay that way forever in-game, considered their continued blatant abject hatred of germany, but for other ppl’s sake who might be interested, here is a comparison (from manufacturer) of turn radius and weapon employment zones compared to the other IRAAM’s the german military used:
If said manufacturer claim is accurate (and there’s no reason to believe its not quite frankly, since “more manoeuvrable than R-73” was a design goal iirc), then the IRIS-T should likely be tighter turning than the current in-game MICA, which its very much not…
Edit: looks like Devil beat me to it lol
You’d likely need to give the tailfins more control authority (for stability) and adjust the PID controller to try to make it work. Granted irl the IRIS-T is claimed to use an H-infinity controller, so it’ll never work as it does irl in-game, but they could get it closer if they actually wanted to.
Doesnt help that the french mains maliciously bug report the IRIS-T to nerf it, such as with the 50G “source” that got its G limit cut down, cuz DS’ second favourite thing to do behind lying about french stuff is trying to nerf german stuff
