Duplicate Vehicles: Why We Add Them

[Leo2A6EX-live]

@Malekitth

And swedish doctrine was heavy attack helicopters? Is that why they couldn’t find a heli and added Mi-28 to them? Because they love helicopters so much in their doctrine that they didn’t have any

Simply they tested it against both sides the american ah64 and Russian Mi28 but after all the program for new Helis were canceled for being complex and expensive to run and maintain

[Malekitth]

You keep making excuses when It doesn’t fit you, but support it if is an addition you like. There is no consistency

[Leo2A6EX-live]

I’ve literally said most nations don’t have light tanks like Italy and their centuros like 4 times now lmao most countries don’t have a doctrine to fit them.

[Leo2A6EX-live]

@Malekitth

but support it if is an addition you like

I don’t like the Addition of theses trial vehicle but I understand why they were added and hope no more/limited are to be added

[Bergebis]

@Malekitth

Russia literally has no wheeled light tank with a cannon, and no light tank above 10.7

Zhalo-S works for 9.0 ish +- 0.7

Not sure what else can fill the wheeled direct fire role.

As for light tanks above 11.7, there are only what, 3 in the entire game? Hsvtl, rdf/LT, and CV90120-T?

Edit: missed Centauro 120 and Centauro 2.

[Leo2A6EX-live]

@Bergebis

11.7, there are only what, 3 in the entire game? Hsvtl, rdf/LT, and CV90120-T

Centuro 120 is 11.7 and centuro 2 is 12.3

[Bergebis]

Ah yep, good catch

[Pipimer]

i am a russian main and i dont want a centuro

[Malekitth]

Swedes didn’t share your sentiment, every match at 11.3 there is a swedish T-80

[Leo2A6EX-live]

@Malekitth

Swedes didn’t share your sentiment

Actually a lot disagree with the t80 🤷‍♀️ the helicopter kinda have to be their tho

[DirtyOldCommie]

@TikaD

Yes, however the difference comes from the fact that the different German nations were not separate from each other in the same way as China and Taiwan. The German nations came subsequently and in succession of one another

GDR and FRG existing at the same time was a thing, you know.

@TikaD

The PRC and RoC are two very different nations with two very different militaries, it’s almost criminal to lump them together in one tech tree and suddenly call it the “chinese combined tech tree” when it is very clearly just the PRC tech tree with RoC tech mixed in.

East and West Germany ending up in the same tech tree despite having spent 40 years pointing guns at each other (not to mention the, to varying degrees, incompatible ideological and political identities of all included German nations) established a precedent for Gaijin’s inclusion of adversarial nations in the same tree long before China was added to the game.

[Pipimer]

so?

[The_Omen17]

The fact that china gets an M1a2, and other western gear is enough for me to quit the game. stop adding nations to fill them with other stuff. if they never produced it domestically then dont add it. For example, Japan has basically nothing domestic right after ww2. so dont add anything. then start with jets and stuff they had. Its not like you dont have the time or knowledge of whats ahead.

[Pipimer]

@The_Omen17

For example, Japan has basically nothing domestic right after ww2

i guess this is nothing then


(without the m41,m47 and 2RI)

[Pheonix_RX01]

Tbf there’s literally only one 11.3 swedish vehicle so if you are there you’re probably gonna run into one until gaijin hopefully remove it. The majority of the actual Swedish tree fans don’t want it lmao

[Boris_The_Turtle]

@Stona_WT

We want to keep adding vehicles to every nation for years and years to come, and hypothetically if we could add all of those remaining unique vehicles right now, there would be nothing left for the future, or forever, potentially.

I think the focus is wrong here. Vehicles are limited because of the realistic nature of the game. Running out of vehicles once should not be a concern. We already have thousands of vehicles in-game, the quantity itself is essentially meaningless because there is nothing interesting we can do with them in gameplay.

I would much rather add all of the unique vehicles needed to fill gaps than add interim copy-paste slop that only exists to be in the way. Adding existing vehicles to other trees just for the sake of it adds no value to the game itself or its gameplay. It gets to a point where it just ruins the point of playing certain tech trees entirely.

Instead of delaying the inevitable reality that the game will run out of things to add, pivot. Gamemodes are severely lacking; it has been the same for a decade. We will get so much gameplay value out of the assets that already exist in the game if there were more depth and variety in gameplay.

New modes are needed, and have been needed for years. I cannot comprehend how we have gotten this far, yet the gameplay has only deteriorated throughout the lifespan of this game.

[skars]

This right here ^
Unique vehicles should not been premium exclusives.
Premiums should not be better than tech tree variants.
Premiums should not have a low BR to “make them better”.

Examples…
F-4S better than F-4J
F-14D better than F-14B (The AWG9 radar is almost blind to anything not flying towards it).
SU-30MK2 and SU-30MKK, low BR.
J-7D, low BR, compare to closest, J-7E and J-8B are two BR steps up.
J-35XS, we don’t even have a Draken with flares in the tech tree (does a squadron vehicle count?).
Netz (Mod) better than Netz (armaments are not meta, but proves the point)
F-18 with AIM7P (Only premiums to get the 7Ps where it is still a bit relevant)

This seems to be the trend the last couple of years and it is disappointing to see. And this happening again now with the F-14D is just frustrating and disheartening.

Premiums should not be “pay to win”, they should be “pay to progress” at best, like premium time.

[MAUSWAFFE]

A message from @Rowiek

@Rowiek

“I appreciate the effort that went into explaining Gaijin’s reasoning regarding duplicate vehicles. Greater transparency is always welcome, and understanding the reasoning behind certain decisions is something many of us have wanted for years.”

“However, I don’t believe the explanation reflects the current reality for several nations, particularly Japan. The post states that duplicate vehicles are not replacing unique domestic vehicles, but instead serve as temporary additions while those unique vehicles are developed. Unfortunately, from the perspective of someone who has followed the Japanese tree for many years, this is becoming increasingly difficult to believe.”

“Japan is often presented as a nation that has very few unique vehicles remaining. While it is certainly true that Japan cannot compete with nations like the United States or the Soviet Union in terms of sheer production numbers, that does not mean the nation is anywhere close to being exhausted. There are still a significant number of domestic vehicles left to implement. Many of these are not obscure “what-if” projects with little documentation, but aircraft and vehicles for which extensive historical information exists. Blueprints, technical drawings, performance reports, engine specifications, structural documentation, and ammunition data have all been discovered and compiled by members of the community over the years.”

“Perhaps the clearest example is Japanese aviation. The WWII portion of the Japanese aviation research tree has not received a single researchable WWII aircraft in well over five years. I specifically mean the research tree itself, excluding premium, event, and Battle Pass vehicles. Five years is an incredibly long time for an entire era of one nation’s aviation to receive no expansion whatsoever. At the same time, the Japanese tree has continued to receive duplicate or export vehicles, while the large backlog of indigenous aircraft remains untouched.”

“This is where the explanation begins to lose credibility. The community has not failed to provide suggestions. On the contrary, the Japanese section of the forums contains well over 200 aircraft suggestions alone. Many of these suggestions include an enormous amount of research, primary sources, translated documentation, blueprints, performance calculations, and historical context. Obviously, not every suggestion is suitable for implementation, and not every aircraft should be added. However, it is difficult to argue that Japan simply lacks available content when such an extensive catalogue of documented domestic designs exists.”

“This issue also extends beyond aviation. Japan still has domestic ground vehicles, naval vessels, prototypes, production variants, weapon upgrades, and indigenous modifications that could strengthen lineups while simultaneously preserving the nation’s identity. Instead, duplicate vehicles are increasingly being used to solve lineup problems that could arguably be solved with domestic additions.”

“The concern many players have is not that duplicate vehicles exist. Duplicate vehicles absolutely have a place in War Thunder. The concern is when duplicates become the primary solution instead of the secondary one. If duplicate vehicles are intended as temporary placeholders while unique domestic vehicles are being developed, then players should reasonably expect to see those domestic vehicles arriving on a consistent basis. For Japan, that simply has not happened. Instead, many parts of the tree have remained effectively stagnant for years.”

“This naturally creates skepticism when we are told that unique vehicles are still coming “over time”. After waiting more than five years for a single WWII researchable aircraft, “over time” begins to sound less like a roadmap and more like an indefinite promise.”

“Another point raised in the post is that some prototypes are too obscure or insufficiently documented to implement. That is entirely understandable, and no one expects Gaijin to create vehicles from incomplete information. However, this should not be used as a general explanation for Japan’s lack of indigenous additions. Many Japanese vehicles are not obscure at all. The community has already gathered the documentation necessary for numerous suggestions, including detailed technical information that would allow these vehicles to be recreated accurately. The bottleneck no longer appears to be documentation. From the outside looking in, it appears to be prioritization. Ultimately, I think this is the heart of the discussion.”

“Players who choose nations like Japan generally do so because they enjoy experiencing unique domestic vehicles that are unlike those found in other trees. Lineup strength is important. Gameplay balance is important. But so is preserving what makes each nation distinct.”

“I don’t believe the solution is to stop adding duplicate or imported vehicles altogether. They absolutely have a place in War Thunder, especially when they help strengthen lineups or represent smaller operators. What I would like to see instead is greater prioritization of the minor nations. Japan should not have to wait years for domestic additions while receiving imported vehicles in the meantime. The same applies to France, Italy, China, Sweden, Israel, and other nations whose indigenous designs often appear to take a back seat despite there being substantial historical material available.”

“Rather than replacing domestic additions with duplicate vehicles, I would like to see Gaijin increase the amount of effort devoted to these nations so that both can exist alongside one another. If an update introduces an imported vehicle to strengthen a lineup, it should also strive to introduce an indigenous vehicle whenever possible. That approach would preserve national identity while still solving gameplay gaps.”

“Ultimately, I think this requires increasing the overall amount of attention given to the minor nations rather than simply redistributing the existing workload. Many of these trees still contain years’ worth of documented domestic designs that could be added. Prioritizing those alongside imported vehicles would create healthier progression, maintain each nation’s identity, and reassure players that indigenous vehicles are not continually being pushed further into the future. Because at least from the perspective of many players who enjoy the minor nations, the current trend suggests that imported vehicles are arriving far more consistently than the domestic designs that make those nations unique.”

“I genuinely hope Gaijin’s future updates prove otherwise. The historical research is there. The community has already done an incredible amount of work documenting these vehicles. Now it’s simply a matter of giving these nations the attention they deserve. Because at least for Japan, the past five years have shown very little evidence that those unique additions are actually arriving.”

“I know… it’s a ton of text. But what Gaijin is doing now is just putting a trash bandaid on a heavy bleeding wound.”

It’s a long read, but I think he touches on some very important issues here that the statement just doesn’t seem to address. As Gaijin said, unique vehicles often take more time and effort, but it is very important for the game that this is actually being invested.

[SinisterIsRandom]

That’s 40mm’s. I’m mainly comparing small Caliber machine guns. Within a tracked base chassis.

[_DAMOCLES]

@Stona_WT

You missed this part:

For example the M44 for Germany, this vehicle filled a gameplay gap in the tree while we worked on developing and implementing the Hummel, which was just implemented in the Heavy Cavalry major update.

Mobile artillery have never been meta vehicles for gameplay purposes, but in the case of germany, players already had access to the brumbar and sturmtiger. They did not need any copy-paste.

Speaking of gameplay gaps, where is the American KH-38MT? LMURs? Vihkers? Pantsir? Spike carrier? MICAs? You know, things that are actually really problematic in terms of game play… If certain nations cant go a single update without getting copy-paste vehicles to fill gaps they didnt have, how is it that America and most other nations dont have copy-paste vehicles with these or comparable features yet?