Duplicate Vehicles: Why We Add Them

@Stona_WT First off, design intent transparency will always be appreciated. So thanks.

That being said (and I know I’m only a minority player here for this next request).
Can you please get the team to update Ground Sim (at least some UI improvements)?
Every copy-paste vehicle makes the game mode more and more problematic. A simple solution would be friendly markers on the normal map (not mini-map). So that there is a cost to get that data but its still possible to determine. Radio communication would normally be available to provide that data in battle. Yes I know that this functionality is already tied to rangefinder, but in top tier. You are also Laser pinging the enemy. What I’m suggesting is similar to what Phlydaily did on his HUDless sherman and tiger videos.

Copy/paste can have its place in the game, that being to fill gaps where a unique vehicle cannot be added, but the problem is that you often completely fail to consider what makes the most sense to add in terms of historical authenticity for certain tech trees, keeping tech trees as their own unique experiences, and not making gameplay incredibly repetitive.

The problem is the copy/paste, whether you intend to add a unique vehicle to fill that same gap later on down the line, still usually hurts the nation said vehicle is being put into. You brought up the Leopard 1A5BE as an example of a sort of stop gap intended to fill the gap between the AMX-30s and the MSC until the AMX-30C2 (which is apparently planned, awesome) can be finished and added. Well, that means that players going through the French tech tree now have to grind through a German tank in the French tech tree, for no other reason than you felt (somewhat justifiably given that gap) that this is a massive gap that needs to be filled…so what happens when the AMX-30C2 DOES come? You don’t remove copy/paste vehicles when the unique ones are ready, so that then leaves people having to grind through a tech tree full of copy/pastes that they don’t want (and in many cases already have in other trees) in order to get to the unique vehicles they are playing that tech tree for.

The same can be said for the BMP-1 when it was first added to the German tree. It helped fill a massive gap in the light tank line within that tree, but only a few updates later we got the Marder 1 at practically the same BR (followed later by the 1A3 at exactly the same BR). Now there’s a random BMP-1 that is completely unrelated to anything sitting in the German tech tree for no reason that players going through the Russian tech tree will encounter that they really shouldn’t, as that’s an east German vehicle that they should be fighting alongside rather than against them. A massive issue with copy/paste you failed to address is that it is not fun having to fight your own vehicle all the time, which is what happens when you remove the match making system that keeps team compositions relatively historical (ie, avoids stuff like having America fighting Britain or WWII Germany being teamed up with Israel) and proceed to copy/paste so many vehicles into other tech trees. If I’m playing America, I want to be fighting Panzer IVs, Tigers, Panthers, etc, and yet I fight Comets, Cromwells, T-34s, and so many Shermans.

While on the subject of the German tech tree, you’ve just mentioned that the M44 and M55 were added to fill the gap in the German tech tree while the Hummel was being developed. What gap? The German tech tree has so many tank destroyers in the 3.7-4.3 BR bracket, and the M44 and M55 as cold war America howitzers did nothing to satiate people waiting for the Hummel, which is a WWII German howitzer. If anything it only made people even more frustrated that it wasn’t in the game yet, because we were seemingly being taunted with two random American SPHs that no one wanted in the German tech tree, and that the German tech tree did not at all need! I think the M44 and M55 are fun vehicles, but any feeling of uniqueness I got from playing that was nonexistent the moment they came to the game since it seemed that virtually everyone had access to them.

You also mentioned that you don’t want to lock unique vehicles behind a paywall, and yet you very often fail to add a unique version of a tank you are copy/pasting into a tech tree that might need it when you absolutely could. As an example, take 3.7 Italy. 3.7 Italy lacked a good medium tank for several years, as the P40’s poor firepower means it massively struggles in uptiers. Italy’s 3.7 lineup still primarily consists of unique Italian vehicles from when they were still on the side of the axis, so surely a Panzer IV would make the most sense, right? Nope, that’s a premium, but at least we got a Panzer III M that they didn’t need and doesn’t fill that gap. Okay, so I guess we’re adding allied vehicles then, so it’s probably going to be a Sherman. The only Sherman in the Italian tech tree at that point was the IC Firefly, but at least it was a composite hull variant of the vehicle unique to the Italian tech tree! Surely it would make the most sense to add a composite 75 Sherman to the Italian tech tree to fill that 3.7 gap, right? Nope, the composite 75 Sherman is ALSO locked behind a paywall, and instead we got the same M4A4 Sherman with no gameplay or visual differences between the one in the French tech tree (that they really didn’t need seeing as they already had the M4A1), and the M4A4 in the Chinese tech tree that is tbh perfectly fine because it actually has a reason to be there.

Also look to the French tech tree, which has a massive medium tank gap between 5.0 and 6.7/7.0. Ignoring the fact that I feel the M4A4 (SA50) should be 4.7 rather than 5.0, this is a HUGE and very important gap that has yet to be addressed. I expected that the Panther would likely be used to fill this gap, as France operated a decent number of them post war, practically wrote the book on what we know about that tank’s performance today, and the vehicle had a noticeable impact on immediate post war French designs. The 75’s performance was liked so much that France developed the SA50 for the AMX-13, and so many of those immediate post war medium and heavy tank designs featured overlapping roadwheels unique to mid/late war German designs. Adding the Panther to help fill this medium tank gap would be a welcome addition…and yet it was locked behind a paywall. Okay, well with Israeli vehicles being added as event vehicles and premiums, maybe a production version of the M-50 Sherman will be added. France already has the prototype at 5.0, so it’s not hard to imagine how fun it would be to play with slightly improved armor, better suspension, a better engine, smoke grenades, and a roof mounted .50. Nope, because instead Israel was added as their own tech tree that consists almost entirely of modified and even copy/paste M48s, M60s, Centurions, and a handful of other vehicles, and even they still don’t have an M-50! Instead, after years of waiting, French players were finally treated to…an M26 at 6.7. A copy/paste American tank that doesn’t do anything to effectively fill this gap seeing as its an overtiered 6.3 medium tank that only serves to fill the shoes of the AMX M4 after it got moved up, along with the rest of the 6.7 lineup. Why an M26 but NOT the Panther? The Panther would have made more sense to be in the tech tree and would have more effectively filled this gap, but instead we get the same tank we can already play in the American and Italian tech trees?

I know I’m rambling at this point, but saying that you use copy/paste to fill gaps just isn’t good enough. Copy/paste vehicles should be added only when necessary, and yet they are frequently added without reason, or as a stop gap that will hurt the tech tree for years to come even though a unique vehicle is already in development. Their impact on gameplay variety (which you talk about all the time when refusing to decompress BRs) should be very heavily considered as it just is not fun fighting your own tanks all the time, or the same tanks no matter what nations you are teamed up with, and yet it obviously isn’t considered given how many Shermans, Stuarts, T-34s, P-47s, etc. there are right now, with the most obvious example being the M44 and M55. A serious attempt should be made to make their models look at least somewhat distinct from their counterparts in other tech trees, whether that mean adding a unique variant rather than straight copy/paste, or modifying the existing variant to have a model that is at least somewhat visually distinct from the vehicle(s) already in game. Take for example the Sherman II, the Rochev, or the previously mentioned composite Firefly. You still occasionally do this (I strongly disagree with the decision to add the Leopard 1A5BE to France or an Italian Leopard 1A2, but they both look great, and I appreciate that France and Italy both have unique vehicles for their quad .50 SPAAs), but for every one of those we seemingly get two instances of vehicles like the M44, the M55, the M4A4, the M18 (why is the M64 an event vehicle instead of a tech tree one again?), the M109s, the Stingray (why does the US tech tree have the Stingray and not the XM8 again?), the M24, the M10, etc.

I’m not saying copy/paste doesn’t have its place, but the way it’s being done in War Thunder right now, and the way it’s been done for years, is frankly unacceptable, lazy, and absurd. There is a way for copy/paste to be done well, and what you are doing right now just isn’t it.

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and now it cant playable becuase Su-30. Nice 80$ plane but cant enjoy able and didnt get even 7P and 120A.

I don’t mind the copy-paste premiums as long as they’re in their respective tech tree or there’s no analogue in a BR range of another. I don’t like the ever increasing pricing and frequency of premiums. $70 for a single vehicle in game with thousands is a bit steep. I’d happily buy premium time by the year if it didn’t feel like most of the new vehicles were premiums.

That being said I feel like we the community are partly responsible for this issue by buying them in heaps and still complaining about them. I also wish there were more, less expensive ways to get the event vehicles. I was in the hospital during the Nuclear Thunder event and lost out on earning my favorite aircraft of all time, the TU-95. Now I’ll have to wait for an event that might not come or waste most of my SL trying to gamble for it. I think transparency about the possible return of an event vehicle or a system where vehicles on the more “conventional side” of the spectrum could have a “challenge” “quest” or “special order” would be neat, even if I had to purchase a voucher or something similar.

I’ve made a lot of friends through War Thunder and I really want to see it do well. I thank the team for their time and willingness to listen.

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Such bad takes.

I’m fine with duplicate premiums, like Leo 2s, Leo 1s, T72s, etc etc. but when most premiums are unique vehicles that you cannot get in the tech tree. That’s what most of the community has issue with.

Example. T58, T54E2, T54E1, 2S38, MLRS, etc etc, list goes on.

I don’t even care if there are dupes in other tech trees, other than it being incredibly lazy.

What about new game modes and maps instead of copy paste tanks G.

Haven’t had a new GRB gamemode in 10 years, or new maps in years. Just rehashed old ones, which are just as bad as they were when they were removed lol.

And the whole manipulation tactic of “if we close the game everyone loses” thing is so stupid. If war thunder is shut down, gaijan as a whole will crumble. It’s the only game that has any amount of playerbase, even if half of it is bots

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Realisticly yes; but it would be interesting to see it go into the french one simply because it is a Char B1 hull

As much as I’d agree that it is more appropriate to add into the German Tech Tree i think France would benefit from some more interesting and unique vehicles that were tied to their designs (in the sense of it being a Char B1 hull and allat); unlike Germany which has relatively quite a bit unique early vehicles in its TD line

Interesting; thanks for the better (and probably more well suited) options

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so a complete line get added something and not ones that has obvious void line gap? it already has F-84G-21-RE prior adding the L-39ZA/ART already.

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Compared to detestable maps (for ground), compression (mainly for air), and servers, duplicate vehicles are pretty much a non-issue, especially when they’re premium.

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Plz just fix whats broken… Especially if it costs £70
F2 radar is not acceptable to be left this long in the state its in.

Im sick of seeing we fixed the new stuff… dont care as its all garbage slop. It makes me not want to spend another penny too as who knows what breaks next and takes months/ years to fix.

I wish there was a dislike button…

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Just give me a regular Hungarian IS-2 and add discounts for every identical vehicle researched.

that doesnt make it perfect, or even good, theres many many many things about the game that are bad or terrible and need to be improved

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Why aren’t old event vehicles returning? It’s not fair that only content creators get them. It would be great if they came back, but without the option to sell them. Also, why don’t they bring back the helicopter PvP mode? I think they could bring it back now, since there are so many capable helicopters.

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Talk is cheap.

the SU-39, BMPT, and T-80 are all different from the tt counterparts

Hey Thomas very good takes, I was thinking about germany since if i recall Belgium tank battalions are integrated inside the German Bundeswehr but I might be wrong about that.

Those are present for the Benelux, like a Leopard 1A5BE MEXAS with our own MECAR produced APFSDS rounds (as obviously Belgium has its own weapons factories, we didn’t use German ammo on most out leopards…).

Yes it would be a nice addicion, my take is that there have been no relevant unique French Vehicles for the last few updates, a Unique Belgian tank would be welcomed, but it could come together with a unique french Tank no?

Stona said that:

the Leopard 1A5BE addition doesn’t negate the AMX-30C2 (which is in our plans for the future)

But like how many updates does it take to make a tank whose model only large difference to the B2 that is already in game for year is a stabilizer, even the 3D model is like 99% equal to what we already have.

That is my biggest gripe with tthis sittuation. It doesn’t make sence to add 5 F-16 and in all this time they gained of R&D to not put a single unique Mirage F1 variant, like the Moroccan MF2000.

It just feels like they are having a laught at us man… like just add another F-16 or another Leopard 2 and the game will magically fix itself, trust me bro it didn’t work the other 15 times we tried, but this leopard or this F-16 will fix it lol

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However, Gaijin officially promised to return Singaporean vehicles to their countries of origin. This is not without precedent – in the game, Spanish and Turkish vehicles are also spread across multiple nations’ tech trees. Returning Singaporean vehicles to their producing countries would be a good addition.
The U.S. could receive the F-15SG (an F-15E with an AESA radar,). The U.S. needs this, F-15C currently underperforms significantly in the game.

Okay that wasn’t a reach and a half your just putting words in other people mouths. He literally was talking about 3 LEO 2A6’s not a Abrams and Leclerc. Those are literally the same base vehicle with minor changes to the side skirts.

I think that’s where a lot of issues arise
Why add them if they aren’t different from the same vehicle found in other nations? I get it from a ‘fill a gap for now’ perspective, but from a user interest/return on investment perspective? I think there should be more discussion between Gaijin to Player in these terms (See Vextra 105 and its history, which I consider successful in that department)