[Discussion] Balance, Bias, Matchmaking and Battle Ratings

[Tea_And_Country]

Why isnt the mig 23 12.0 worthy? its the fastest jet at the br range, it gets 2 r24rs which are fantastic and only get outdone by the 7f (in terms of range as in cqb its better). The radar is mid but its j band so most players dont even see it on rwr and the r24r carry it in that respect as they dont need a strong lock. The r60ms are all aspect and are more than good enough when used correctly. How is this thing 11.7 when you have jets like the F-104s.ASA at 12.0 and the tornado ids varients at 11.7 with only 2 9ls?

The only reason the mig 23 is at 11.7 is because most of the player base who play it bomb bases and are truly awful at the game.

The F4s has agile eagle, 7fs, pd radar and hms? The ej kai at 12.3 has 7fs and 9ls plus a better radar? The f4s if it got 9ls could easily be 12.3 and it almost is capable of being 12.3 as is anyway as 9ls are no longer the power house they used to be and are more inline with r60ms with how much they go for missiles and flares.

[Tea_And_Country]

Compression can be solved, and only solved, by moving things up not down. Move the mig 23 up, move the f4s up, this would then cause the jets that stomp them to be moved up. Keeping these jets at brs they are fantastic at just because a slight increase in br would make them challenging to play does not give them the right to stomp 10.7s? A mig 23 to a 10.7 IS like an f-15 to a 11.7, there is nothing u can do to a smart mig 23 player.

Dont get me started on the mig 21 bis, i have it and it is NOT an 11.0 jet, it should have never been moved down from 11.3, especially after gaijin artificially buffed its rwr.

[Normandy_Corsair]

@Ion_492

but how is the MLD worse than the British Phantoms?

It’s just not better, I didn’t say it was significantly worse.

@Tea_And_Country

Why isnt the mig 23 12.0 worthy?

In the current state of the game, no RWR and only 2 usable missiles combined with a mediocre flight model. It would be a Mirage F1 situation again at the very peak possible performance it could have at 12.0.

In a decompressed game, it obviously could be.

@Tea_And_Country

its the fastest jet at the br range

The BR range being?

@Tea_And_Country

it gets 2 r24rs which are fantastic and only get outdone by the 7f

Yes, and you get 2 of them as opposed between 4 and 6 on phantoms.

@Tea_And_Country

The radar is mid but its j band so most players dont even see it on rwr

The players at your own BR do. The better jets that actually get played at lower BRs like F-4E also do.

@Tea_And_Country

The r60ms are all aspect

This does very little to help their performance.

@Tea_And_Country

and are more than good enough when used correctly.

Explain how? They are 1 flares in all scenarios.

@Tea_And_Country

How is this thing 11.7 when you have jets like the F-104s.ASA at 12.0 and the tornado ids varients at 11.7 with only 2 9ls?

Those should just be lower.

@Tea_And_Country

The F4s has agile eagle, 7fs, pd radar and hms? The ej kai at 12.3 has 7fs and 9ls plus a better radar? The f4s if it got 9ls could easily be 12.3

The EJ Kai can’t even be 12.3 and perform well currently, why would the F-4S, which has a far worse radar and is slower? Just because it can turn slightly better and use HMD?

@Tea_And_Country

as is anyway as 9ls are no longer the power house they used to be and are more inline with r60ms with how much they go for missiles and flares.

It doesn’t matter if the 9L is also flare hungry now as its range will always still be 2-2.5x higher than the R-60.

[Normandy_Corsair]

@Tea_And_Country

Compression can be solved, and only solved, by moving things up not down. Move the mig 23 up, move the f4s up, this would then cause the jets that stomp them to be moved up.

You misunderstand something. I believe the exact same. What I don’t believe, and what you have expressed, is that they would CURRENTLY work at those BRs and WOULDN’T just be a punching bag to HOPEFULLY incentivize the higher jets to go higher.

[_Poul]

@LeChance

And while I am not sure, I feel like this is also a reason that those clamoring for a 0.7 BR
spread for the matches can’t have their way. As 1.7 - 2.3 is just 0.6 and would not fit in a 0.7
configuration.
There is prolly more to it, but programming may not have the ability to discern those subtle differences.

The game’s BR system is based on integers, so in the game files vehicles have BR values of 0, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5…

The reason we see values like 1.0, 1.3, 1.7, 2.0, 2.3 is that the client uses a function that displays these integers in a custom format.

They could theoretically display these values as 1.(3) and 1.(6), which would be more accurate, but that would probably look even more confusing to most players. That is why we have this unusual 1.0, 1.3, 1.7, 2.0 BR system. It is purely a client-side display choice.

This is done because otherwise we would have 41 distinct BR levels, and the matchmaker would place you in battles with vehicles within a 3 BR-step range, which would look overcomplicated to many players. Currently, the +/-1.0 BR system is much easier to understand.

If the developers wanted to change the matchmaker to a +/-0.7 BR system, they would most likely only modify the display function and map the integer values to steps like 1.0, 1.5, 2.0, 2.5. And then internally change the matchmaker to 2 BR steps. With these two simple changes, the system would remain +/-1.0 BR for players, but with fewer vehicles within each range.

In my opinion, a 0.5 BR-step display system would be better than the current one, where some players mistakenly believe there is a larger gap between a 1.3 and 1.7 BR vehicle than between a 1.7 and 2.0 vehicle, even though all gaps are identical. With such a system, we would have vehicles ranging up to 21 BR.

[SVOBAJS_CZECHIA]

The BR system is absolutely stupid and sloppy. I would leave the values ​​as they are and just adjust the battles so that 10.3BR players fight against 10.0, 10.3, 10.7 and that’s it. It’s simple. It’s nonsense, I would fight against tanks 3 levels stronger! It’s nonsense! 10.3 can’t compare to 11.3 and that’s why it has a lower value! So why the hell does it have to fight 85% of the time against 11.3? That value is not for the faint of heart! But gaijin is lazy, extremely lazy to change anything! They don’t even add new tanks, they prefer to copy old ones and throw them at everyone and give one extra as a premium. Easy money. And the imbalance of the team is another extreme problem. I’m getting tired of gaijin, all my friends stopped playing it because of the stupid UPTIER.(google translate)

[SoundWave777]

Not so good it should face 13.0, it’s stupid, it has a radar that barely works, can’t notch, can’t dogfight and has a max range of 10km, had its bomb load nerfed, not fast, bleeds speed in a turn.
It’s just an exercise in spawning and exploding.

[SoundWave777]

Specifically the Phantom FGR.2 is already unplayable at 12.0 and mig23 trounces it. You’re delusional. It shouldn’t be facing AESA radar and 13.0’s it’s just an exercise in exploding 18/20 games.

[PumaKing247]

ANNNNND the ridiculous consistent Up tiers are STILL happening.¬!!!

ITS sooo damn deliberate its a coNNNNNNplete joke!

Let alone the imbalanced THEY have 1+br , our team barely have 0.3-0.7!!!

When is someone going to sort out this ridiculous system - OR is it just complete BIAS programming??? because it seems to happen ALOT with the Russians on the enemy side - coincidentally.!"

[Tea_And_Country]

What jet at 13.0 gets an AESA radar? And tbh the arh missiles are the least of my worries, the most scary jet at 13.0 when you have a working rwr is the su 33 with a stupid amount of r27ers. Those things love to ignore your futile attempts at notching and go for you anyway. Most arh missiles are rather easy to notch, only problem is not being able to fight back while your defeating them giving the enemy an advantage but as long as your not in a jet like the tornado or f104 you should be fine as your not falling out the air after one turn.

[Normandy_Corsair]

@Tea_And_Country

Lmao, i have the ej kai and do just fine it it

So do I, jet is an exercise in “how bad can the other guy be and how good can I be” though and doesn’t have any real chance if the other guy isn’t bad or if you aren’t good. It requires both to work.

@Tea_And_Country

Now, from the start. No rwr? spo 10 and spo 15 are more than workable as they actually tell direction and see most bands of radar

They do not give precise angle of attack and therefore can’t reliably be used to notch. You quite literally have to “feel out” every single notch you make with your naked eye and educated guesses as to where the aircraft is locking from

This is all about SPO-15 btw, SPO-10 is garbage

@Tea_And_Country

i use it in the mig 21 bis in sim just fine

your 21bis does not need to notch missiles very often, a mig23 will have to do this

@Tea_And_Country

the f-104 exists at a higher br (of which im still positive in so its doable).

104SASA is one of the worst jets in the game BR for BR

@Tea_And_Country

In terms of speed the only things beating it are jets like the f16, mig 29 and other jets of that generation. So yes it IS the fastest thing at its br range apart from full uptiers

I didn’t ask you for all this, I asked you what you meant by “its BR range” and as I predicted you basically laid out that you only mean in full downtiers and not in even slight uptiers.

@Tea_And_Country

A quick add, the mirage 2k no longer has a bad fm and is rather potent now.

The FM is still quite mid because it 1. Compresses into a brick past 900kph like the old F-16 FM and 2. Stops going faster than 500kph if you do get under 900kph because it has horrid speed bleed. The M2K FM has only really been nerfed and not buffed so idk why you’re implying its better now rather than when it came out.

@Tea_And_Country

R60ms in a head when fired from sub 1km are insta kill as they tend to ignore flares.

No… they don’t. Lmao. Easily and always 1 flared, and I mean one flare.

@Tea_And_Country

They are worse but only by a small amount not that stupid 2.5x

They have quite literally something like 2.5x less range than a 9L

@Tea_And_Country

Its why i see no reason why the mig 21 bis should be 11.0 as most jets have no chance against you in full down tiers. You want a mirage 3c to face that thing lol?

Its simple BR compression. 21bis isn’t as good as the 11.3s.

@Tea_And_Country

Most missiles without irccm are now 1 flares in every situation

Nobody said otherwise, but R-60Ms have no range and rely purely on “me turn good” to get kills. Something thats fully invalidated by flaring.

@Tea_And_Country

The f4s is simply played by newer players who are just bad at the game, the shit radar is counteracted by the fact it has hms which negates most of its negatives

Believe it or not, HMS has nothing to do with how bad a radar is.

[Ion_492]

@Normandy_Corsair

I didn’t ask you for all this, I asked you what you meant by “its BR range” and as I predicted you basically laid out that you only mean in full downtiers and not in even slight uptiers.

The Mig-23 will very easily outspeed anything but the Mig-25 at high altitude, F-111, or an F-16 in some situations. Even in a full uptier, it will still be fairly fast for its BR.

@Normandy_Corsair

This is all about SPO-15 btw, SPO-10 is garbage

SPO-15 also can’t detect the J band radars that Mig-23s use, making SPO-10 preferable in some situations.

[Normandy_Corsair]

@Ion_492

The Mig-23 will very easily outspeed anything but the Mig-25 at high altitude

Do you think going to high altitude in MiG-23 is smart when you have SPO-10 or SPO-15 though. Even if you don’t get touched by enemy radar missiles, you aren’t impacting the match from high alt generally speaking.

[Tea_And_Country]

Oh no, my jet isnt the fastest thing in 100% of my games but only 80% of my games? That is literally how you sound rn lol. AND spo 10 and 15 is an 8 directional rwr so yes u can easily notch using it, against missiles like the r27er it will be a little harder but its not impossible, the scariest missile youll be facing at the br is the r24r as its REAL hard to notch compared to 7fs and other sparrows.

Also for the t60ms, you get in a headon and fire at the very last minute, they usually dont have enough time to pop flares and even if they do its just not enough. You can do it with 9ls to an extent but r60ms allow you to pull away while firing as theyll be able to pull in, this is like waiting till 0.6km.

Brother you have like a 2.5 kd in your mig 23 how do you not think it should move up?

[Ion_492]

@Tea_And_Country

Brother you have like a 2.5 kd in your mig 23 how do you not think it should move up?

I perform decently in them, and moving the ML/MLA up would be a disaster due to how garbage the RWR is. Good luck dodging Fox-3s with one of the worst RWRs in the entire game.

I’d rather have the weak 12.0s like the British Phantoms move to 11.7, than all Mig-23s go up.

[Tea_And_Country]

The rwr just aint as bad as everyone says, it terrible compared to the competition but its usable against most missiles. It tells you wehn your notching and im pretty sure spo 15 has launch warning. Plus youll only be facing jets that are worse than you with arh missiles. I dont think the british phantoms should be moved down as i cant imagine a 10.7 facing them but instead they should be given superTEMP skyflash as they had the ability to mount them. That and 9ls would make them 12.0, 12.3 worthy as they are more viggen equivalents than f4s equivalents.

I think the best way of going about this is by picking a 12.7 and an 11.3 and trying to see how that 11.3 fairs against a mig 23 and how the mig 23 fairs against a 12.7. Say the 11.3 is the f4e so it has a chance and the 12.7 is the f16. so how hard it is for the 11.3 compared to the mig 23. I could have said 10.7 against the mig 23 but good luck in a mirage 3e against a mig 23, this isnt even talking about the mig 25 and how it could be 11.3/11.7.

[SadRIPer]

Out of 20 13.0 GRB games, 5 of them was played along with Russia.

I lost 11 of them against Russia VS 9 victories, among them 5 victories along with Russia. So basically, Russia won 11+5 = 16 games and NATO won 4 games. Russia has a 80% winrate at 13.0 GRB.

It follows this thread : Russia dominates 12.7 GRB and it is a problem I made this morning, when I was publishing 18 games won by Russia in 13.0 GRB VS 3 games won by NATO, out of 21 13.0 GRB games. Russia had 86% winrate during these 21 first games.

The game is rigged, it is obvious. There is a monumental bias towards Russia at 13.0 GRB (at any BR imo), and people can’t say there is no bias anymore.

[PumaKing247]

Tell me a fake match when you see one!!! Sick and tired of BOTs in game that do only 1 thing!

FORCE THE LOSING SIDE! And why is that!!

THATS why!!!

[Panda70915-live]

@Ion_492

I perform decently in them, and moving the ML/MLA up would be a disaster due to how garbage the RWR is. Good luck dodging Fox-3s with one of the worst RWRs in the entire game.

its the same as try to doge mig25pd radar missile with sahak or kfir canard that you dont even know if the mig25pd track you. so you need to pray that when you go abouve 100m no mig25pd radar missile will kill you at 10.0 when most of the plane dont even have flaers or chaff and i dont even talk about rwr

[SadRIPer]

Something needs to be done about EC-665 Tiger UHT/EC-665 Tiger HAC/Tiger HAD Block 2 BRs. They have no business being at 13.0.

Their loadout is literally way worse than their american/russian/chinese counterpart. EC-665 Tiger HAC doesn’t even have a cannon, bruh.