Data on Nations and First To Get new Technology

Game Discussion General Discussion
1

I have probably made a minor mistake here or there, But I was looking at some data and numbers. Here are two sets for you guys. If you would please review them as well. This is based of RB mode BR numbers.

Here is what the data shows:

  1. Only 1 nation has no BR gaps. USSR.
  2. 2 Nations get New Tech at a lower BR more often by 200%. USSR (4) & Taiwan/china(4).
  3. Helicopters: USSR can out range SPAA of 4 other nations with guided missiles at Max BR.
  4. Helicopters: USSR gets range upgrades to guided missiles three times at the lowest BR.
  5. SPAA Range: USSR has the best range by 67% further than any other nation(20km vs 12km).
  6. SPAA Tech: USSR, Taiwan/china, and Isreal get first tech 2 times before other nations.
  7. Light Tanks: USSR gets new tech 3 times before any other nation.
  8. Light Tanks: USSR has 17% more light tanks than any other nation.

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Take a look, tell me what you think. If you see any corrections please let me know.

This data can actually prove a useful metric, like when are you more likely to face being uptiered. Look for BRs where ussr doesn’t have much in the way of vehicles. This means less players on the big nations in that slot. So you are more likely to face constant uptiers. This would be true for example if you play Sweden BR 7.0 where you face a blackhole. This means you will see more battles against russia 7.7/8.0 because they have many more vehicles sitting there, and they have a technology boost at 7.7 of two items. Another example would be France at 7.3. As you can see USA and ussr have very few vehicles there, but have plenty and a technology bump at 7.7 (more players are going to want this better tech naturally) so you will see more uptiers. You can see this all over the board, and why the current setup is just not balanced. At least one reason why. Another reason is no nation should hold that many more first in technology steps than others.

This actually shows an interesting problem in and with this game. Things like:

  • ussr is the first nation to get a stabilizer on a vehicle in game, despite the British pioneering this technology. British Centurion Mk 3 was the first production tank to get this.
  • Taiwan/china is the first nation to get proximity shells on SPAA despite the USA being the first to use them in combat and get kills successfully in WW2.

Take a look at the light tank data. You will find, that the ussr is first to get new tech 300% more than other nations. Most nations sit at 0, while the ussr sits at 3. In a balanced game everyone would get new tech at the same BR. But this isn’t the case in war thunder.

I will keep the list short but you get the idea. This is actually a very good demonstration of russian bias in the game. Using data you can see they are first to get most new tech by a land slide. In some cases getting new tech a full 1.0 BR ahead of others.

I would like to point out, to show bias in the game, in all 3 data sets you will find that russian vehicles are exponentially more likely to be the first to get new technology.

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BR gaps are an indicator of how different technology increases.
USSR has less BR gaps cause they have more incremental steps & thus are causing most of the balancing.
NVD being on bad tanks isn’t a good thing.
That technology list is missing IRST SPAA, which includes Wiezel, the 8.3 British SPAA, etc.
Nearly all other countries get technology first before Soviets.

And your math is wrong.
Popularity is what dictates uptier chance, not holes in BRs.

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Your data really doesn’t back up the claim that Russia gets handheld in terms of new technologies.

Firstly, throwing in low tier NVD, which is 100% useless, even back before night maps were completely removed, just weakens your argument.

The PT-76 is literally only decent because it gets a stabilizer. No-one on the planet is arguing that it’s OP for having it. It’s also the only Soviet vehicle to get the full stabilizer until 8.3, while the British have it on much stronger vehicles all throughout 7.3 and up (6.7 if we include the Cent Mk 2). The Swedish line also gets it, which you’ve conveniently left off the list.

The ZSU-37-2 (And Shilka, for that matter) have objectively the worst search and track RADARs in the game, so obviously they’re going to be the lowest tiered ones.

The Soviets are tied with 4 other nations as to the first nation to get IR SAMs, and yet you pull them out as the first, for some reason.

It’s even worse with mouse guided ATGMs, they’re tied with the Marder 1 at 7.7, and a full BR higher than the actual first vehicle to get mouse guided ATGMs, the Ratel 20 in the British line.

Meanwhile, if we look at the availability of arguably the two most impactful technologies, LRF and thermal sights, you’ll see they’re very uncommon in the Soviet tech tree, while fairly common in other ones at a much lower BR. You don’t get thermal sights on an MBT until the T-80B at 10.3, while other nations have them at or around 9.0/9.3 (M60 TTS, Leo 1A5, Strv 105, Oilphant Mk II, etc).

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My Data is facts, and it does show they are handheld new technology first. As you can see they get new technology more times than anyone else at a lower BR. What you are stating here is an incorrect opinion.

This is also incorrect as the PT-76-57 & Object 906 both also have stabilizers on the russian tech tree before BR 8.3.

Having a search and track radar, vs nothing at all is still better. Other nations have to wait a full 1 BR before they see SPAA Radar. I would argue that having anything is better than having nothing. And again, opinion which doesn’t negate the facts that they do have it.

Again, incorrect as mouse guided ATGMs to some users are better. But still, data is data and yours is just an opinion.

Which shouldn’t have thermals as the U model had (very terrible basic thermals) but the B didn’t until more recent events (kind of as they are slapping old half broken units on tanks in a mad dash right now).

I will however add that the T80-B is at 10.3. The T-72AV has thermals as well for Gunner and Commander before the T80-B does. The BMP-3, BMD-4, BMP-2M, and 2S38 all have thermals as well, and even though they are not MBTs they are very capable at hunting tanks. So kind of dishonest to ignore them and a bit of a moot point because deciding if an MBT or alternative has thermals is more important is an opinion on play style and not fact of data.

But again I digress. The data is data, and opinion doesn’t override that. Their is no “weakness of argument” when publishing the facts. Facts are facts.

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The data shows Soviets don’t get useful technologies first, but at best at the same time.
That’s not being “handheld”.
You should read your own data before posting contrary statements about the data.
Two-plane stabilization was added to the game because of Britain BTW.

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I just wait for new leopard or kf-31, 41,boxer. May it be?

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It would also be interesting to see what tech / mechanics gets implemented and how long it takes to be received by its pioneers, in both update span and chronological order (and if its implemented in a tech tree vehicle, or if it could be refitted to one or not).

For example we’re still waiting for the US F-4 C/(D), E to get the PAVE Spike[1969](implemented in Sky Guardians on ISR F-4E-2000) TGP, let alone the PAVE Light[1966] / Knife[1968] / Tack[1971] laser designator / Targeting pod even though the mechanic was first implemented in the game with Ground Breaking update.

It was added the US with the A-6E TRAM in Apex Predators to double dip on US $70 premiums with the subsequent F-4S , and finally to the tree with the F-14B (could have also been refitted to the F-14A) in La Royale.

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The Pt-76-57 IS 8.3. The Object I had assumed was moved up to 8.3, apparently it wasn’t (It does deserve 8.3, but that’s a seperate argument).

The Yinsei and Shilka are 0.7 and 0.3 BR below (respectively) the most powerful RADAR SPAAs, the Gepard and equivalents, and that more or less lines up with the difference in performance. The very limited search angles, poor shell velocity and lack of APDS belt is what accounts for the lower BR. They are far more limited in both AA and anti-tank ability in comparison.

The only other AA at a similar tier which focuses on AA work (As opposed to things like the Falcon and Weisel) is the VADS, which is overall similar enough to be balanced. It lacks search RADAR, as opposed to having limited (And I stress limited) search, but makes up for it in better AA capabilities and smaller size.

You’re misinterpretting this. I’m not saying that mouse ATGMs aren’t an improvement. I’m saying that your data is more wrong in this catagory than others, as it completely misses out on two tanks at or below the BMP’s BR that have mouse guided ATGMs too.

Thermals are most relevant on MBTs due to their primary use being spotting and engaging targets at long range that are in cover and/or concealment. An ATGM or an autocannon is not great at this, due to the slow travel time or lacking penetration respectively.

However, if we are broadening this to include other tanks that get thermals, I’d again point out that most nations get it much sooner than the Soviets. We have the Marder 1A3 and M41D at 8.0, the Warrior, Bradley, M901, AMX 10RC and Striker at 8.3, just so many tanks at 8.7 (SK-105s, MEPHISTO, ZT3A2, Type 89, ZTZ59D1, AMX 30 B2 and BRENUS), all before the very first Soviet thermals at 9.0 (BMD-4, BMP-3). For brevity, I will not list the dozen other tanks at 9.0 that also get thermals.

You conclusion is flawed when you so obviously cherry pick data. The way you present this data makes it look like every tank in the line after a given tech is introduced recieves the benefits. This is incorrect. You put NVDs at a tier that cannot even see night battles, even when they were a thing, on the same level of advantage as thermals and LRF. This is incorrect. You use the wrong numbers and make blatantly false assertions about the Soviets getting tech first, when in fact that recieve it at the same time or even after others. This is incorrect.

An argument is only as strong as the facts you build it on. If you cherry pick them, or simply use incorrect ones, your argument is fundamentally flawed.

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Doesn’t change the fact, that anytime another nation gets tech, russia has something to match it. The 906 is brutal as well with a 4 second reload. russia’s first stabilizer is at 5.3. They are the first of all nations.

Again, this doesn’t matter as it is an opinion. I am sure other nations would love to have at least a chance with some kind of RADAR SPAA. I know playing with Sweden it sucks to get RADAR SPAA a full BR later at 8.7. My opinion by still. It is better to have it than to not. russia gets the first Search and Track SPAA RADAR.

I did say I am open to checking and updating as this was a ton of data to try to sort through. I fixed it. I had mismarked GB for Isreal on WASD Missiles. Table is updated now, and USSR still leads the way.

This is an opinion and I disagree as a light tank player. I can absolutely wreck a good amount of MBTs with the BMP and its thermals. Taiwan/china is a baby russian tree anyways, so it could be argued its simply another +1 for russia in some peoples opinions.

The DATA is simply hard facts. Germany gets thermals first. Taiwan/china (baby russia tree) has them at 8.0 on the M41. But again, even with this being so, russia still has 4 new tech items first.

My conclusion is actually correct. As I build more and more tables guess who is always on top with technology first? russia. Having it first the most in one or maybe two categories is one thing. But having it the most nearly everytime the raw data is looked at is another. Here are the facts. And by the way I added in Helicopters.

  1. russia is first to get new technology 4 times, twice as much as any other nation besides Taiwan/china which is simply a baby russia tree.

  2. russia is first to get new technology twice on SPAAs, tied with two other nations, Taiwan and china (again!) and Isreal.

  3. russia has the longest range SPAA in the game by a 67% increase.

  4. russia is first to get new technology 3 times in the light tank category, 300% higher than any other nation.

  5. russia is first to get upgraded guided missile range more than any other nation in helicopters.

When russia keeps coming up on top it is very hard to deny any kind of bias or advantage.

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Another good thing for this table would be the addition of F&F tank launched missle the first one being in chinas hand

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I can add that. The QN 506?

Should I also add the fire and forget helicopter missiles?

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we only have the Tiger UHT with them so theres not much to add

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The first vehicle to get a Mouse ATGM is the Ratel 20 at 6.7 in the British tree.

The first vehicle to get NVD is the ASU-57 at 4.3. NVD below 7.3 is useless too.

Sweden also gets a PT-76 at 5.3.

Russia doesn’t get an MBT with thermals until 10.3

Russia has 10 Tech Tree light tanks above rank I, and 7 Tech Tree light tanks in rank I, making 17 total. Russia also has 10 premium light tanks, 6 of which are only available on the market.

USA has 9 tech tree light tanks above rank I and 16 tech tree light tanks total. USA has 10 non tech tree light tanks, with 6 being only available on the market.

Not including light tanks that aren’t visible, Russia has 33 light tanks total, USA has 26 total, Germany has 24 total, Britain has 21 total, France has 24 total, And Italy has 22.

If you are going to do this, at least be correct, and unbiased, because you are being very biased.

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I put the tanks I have visible and available in my game. If their are more that I cannot see, then let me know what BR to add them in.

I have said I am up for more data gathering and refinement. I already corrected this.

The russian ASU-57 that is correct, and this isn’t about opinions. This is about facts and data. That is your opinion but doesn’t negate the fact.

In a russian vehicle, and doesn’t remove russia from being the first to get most new tech by the numbers.

Again, doesn’t matter. Germany is the first to get thermals not russia. So that point was given to germany. Also russia gets thermals on a large number of tanks whos BR has been hotly contested at lower levels like the BMP with does extremely well at its BR. This is all opinion though, please stick to the facts.

This is why I stated I am open to adding in more data and information at certain BRs. If you see a vehicle number missing at a certain BR let me know. However:

Data is simple, and doesn’t have an opinion. russia gets more technology before any other nation at all levels, in all divisions from what I have found so far. If you can refute this, then share which nation gets more technology first. Data driven analysis currently says russia stands out 200%-300% of the time being the first to see a new technology, upgrades, and advancements. They very rarely get left behind like many other nations do.

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Almost as if the game is centered around realism & balancing.
Soviets get new technology 2 times, one is NVD that’s useless and the other is on PT-76, a rather bad light tank.

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Again, you are completely forgetting the Swedish tree, for some reason. They also get the same PT-76 at the same tier with the same stabilizer.

Where’s the Soviet match to the influx of British stabilizers around 7.3? As everyone knows, that’s an enormous jump in capability that’s made them very difficult to balance due to how impactful being the first to have stabilizers en mass is. Having a single stabilized vehicle at a much earilier tier (That they share with another nation) doesn’t mean much when the rest of their stabilized vehicles are just as delayed as everyone else. When you ask someone “Which tree is the first to get stabilized vehicles”, the PT-76 is the asterisk they’re going to mention before talking about the British.

The Japanese are the first to get a heavy tank, with the Ro-Go. Is this secretly a sign of Japanese bias? Or is it just that the Ro-Go is by far the worst heavy tank in the game, and thus is at a much lower BR than other heavies?

You can’t point at a weak vehicle being at a lower tier than other vehicles with similar but much better capabilities, and then scream about bias. If anything, that’s balance.

You’re still missing one. The Type 60 ATM ties the Zachlam Tiger And AMX-13 SS 11 as first WASD guided ATGM. I would hardly describe the Soviets as leading the way, but I’ll get back to that.

I don’t understand this argument. It’s a seperate tree. Your argument is that the Soviet tree is the first to get new technlogies and benefits from this, and now you’re using as evidence a different tree that has Soviet equipment in it. Do they always fight on the same team? Do you unlock one as you unlock another? Can you use both at the same time in a lineup? Because if not, I struggle to see how a different line getting thermals on an MBT in anyway benefits the Soviets.

Let’s go through these step by step, shall we?

Tied first to get NVDs. At a tier that cannot ever see a night map, even back when night maps where a thing. The only benefit they give players is the ability to flashbang themselves if they accidentally hit the N key instead of the binocs key. How does this benefit the Soviets, exactly?

They’re also tied with 3 other nations, with the American, Japanese and Chinese M42 Dusters.

Tied first to get stabilizer. On a very niche and vulnerable vehicle, after which they lack it up until everyone else starts getting them at 8.0/8.3. Move the Object 906 up to 8.3 where it belongs, and they’re tied with everyone at 8.3.

First to get very limited search and track RADAR SPAA. Fair enough, but this is literally just a case of these SPAA being far weaker than their Western search and track counterparts. I see no evidence of bias or advantage here.

And finally, tied with literally half the in game nation as to first to get IR guided SPAA. I an baffled that you can hold this up as evidence of Russia having an advantage when it’s one they share with half the game. That’s like pointing to the US getting APHE and claiming that’s evidence of them having an advantage.

So those are the 4 pieces of evidence for the ground vehicles. Three of which are shared with other nations, one of which is literally useless, leaving you with just the fact that they get bad RADAR SPAA first, as your evidence for Soviet bias. Not a very strong argument.

I’m not touching the helicopter part of this as I don’t have the firsthand experience to add to it (And frankly, as a ground player, I consider them all unbalanced and unfun, I don’t see the need to dissect it further). But I will happily agree that the top tier SPAA balance is clearly in Russia’s favor with the Pantsir. That on it’s own is the most compelling piece of evidence, but on it’s own all it proves is the usual Gaijin powercreep cycle. As in Gaijin adds a new tool to a high tier line that powercreeps everything else, people switch to that line to grind it, then they pick a new line to add a powercreep to, everyone switches, etc etc.

If you want to prove Russian bias, talk about their undertiered tanks (T-55AM-1, Object 906, etc), talk about how they’re the strongest SPAA at top tier by far, talk about the Ka-50/52s, the Su-25 damage model, stuff like that. It’s a lot more convincing than things they share with other lines, and the ability to flashbang yourself on demand.

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17

Could you do this on an introduction date (to the game) basis rather than a BR basis?

Like, the first nations to get laser guided weaponry, first to get ARH, SARH, etc, first to get thermals, first to get X type SPAA, stuff like that?

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The Olympian levels of reach it takes to consider the M41D/PT-76B/Shilka/Yinisei and Strela as evidence of bias

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