I mean he is not wrong. MICA are technically mostly underperforming compared to IRL, in turning ability, range and acceleration. Doesn’t mean it currently needs any of those changes anytime soon tho
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This is kinda funny and a treat to wake up to. Bad_Karma (youtuber) makes an argument that the Rafale should be 9,550kg for a conservative estimate. What’s wrong with that argument? The new dev-server Rafale is set exactly to 9,550kg. I mean at this point a lot of these youtubers need to stop with their relatively misinformed opinion they hold against the Rafale and start approaching this subject objectively.
Also another reminder that developers do not take my answer as final at all, they look at the sources and make up their own opinion/calculation on it. My own calculation is to prove to the tech mods that I attempted to do my homework somewhat.
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I guess the error comes from the dateline showing empty mass of 9300kg, which probably doesn’t refer to the same empty mass set by Gaijin in reports ?
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It could be that I underestimated just how heavy the Rafale C is in-game with pilot+ammo+full fuel, I’m not that good with datamine stuff. But yeah, it’s funny to know that the Rafale could potentially still be overweight by 70kg (ammo) which should be re-visited with an attempt to find more sources on it.
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underperforming compared to IRL, follow the discussion before posting
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First, my post is from 7 hours ago
the dev’s response was sent a few hours later
How am I supposed to know this hours before post my argument if I’m not even on the development team or anything?
And at the end of my report, I just wanted to argue about the difference in weight between the two planes in that BAE-É crash report, it doesn’t say what causes the difference in weight, I have made clear the reasons why this happens and it is also clear why I want this to be reviewed
I probably followed the same logic as the developers, but I still have this doubt about the wingmans plane (because they are two identical planes, from the same batch and the same model), the support guy couldn’t understand it, or he didn’t read it to the end
like… I asked my 9 year old brother to read it and he understood, so an experienced support employee like that is supposed to understand it too
Im also curious about one thing, how is it my opinion if I just reread your sources and brought accurate data, how is it my opinion? Explain
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Why do British mains have their own tech mod but not French mains??? There should be more transparency on that.
Because 9,300kg + ammo + pilot + leftover oil/fuel does amount to 9,550kg in-game if you tested it. The weight of the Rafale in the files is before the pilot, ammo, and residual oil/fuel.
The FULL PDF source was given to the developers and the pages provided did include the wingman’s weight as well, so any concern regarding that disparity was resolved by the developers. I even pointed out this disparity in the report although like I said I doubt the developers bother to read the lengthy comments I made and instead come to their own conclusions after reading the sources.
Right, you have a problem with the wingman aircraft weighing heavier than the lead aircraft when you yourself have pointed out that there are reasonable explanations for why that is, for example added materials onto an aircraft due to repairs. But why should that be the cause to increase weight when Gaijin is actually looking for the empty weight of an aircraft fresh from the factory?
Most primary sources detailing the empty weight of aircraft in-game are made right when the aircraft starts getting produced and delivered to the air force, i.e. aircraft manuals for pilots and etc. So would it be reasonable for the Rafale to have an empty weight higher than recently delivered aircraft when the rest of the game is using empty weight made at the start of its service life? It wouldn’t be consistent.
Following this train of logic, even the lead aircraft has been in service for several years now at this point as the report was done in 2022 and Rafale C F3R has been getting delivered since 2013, 9 years after its delivery and likely the lead aircraft is still weighing more than freshly delivered Rafale C F3R.
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There is sufficient reasons why the current Rafale C F3R even on dev-server has probabilities that it is still weighing more than it should be.
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The developers did not take into account the ammo even though the report did state that the Rafales were conducting actual training, but it isn’t explicitly stated that ammo was being carried so I’m okay with it for now until more sources are found providing more clarity.
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The lead aircraft that was pointed out in the report was an aircraft that had 3,713 flight hours as stated in the report. Looking at other sources this is typically what is halfway into a fighter aircraft’s service life, nothing at all close to new.
Any way you cut it, this aircraft is at a very conservative estimate in terms of weight.
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Because who wants to be a French tech mod knowing there are tech mods on Russian forums that straight up gloat about attempting to nerf Rafale and closely watching every Rafale reports? Ralin, a tech mod on the Russian forums outed himself as being one of them.
Ralin for instance gloating about the Rafale’s maximum overload being nerfed. Tech mods have different behavior standards on Russian forums it seems.
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lmao, luck that’s it
get one of your Frenchies to become a Techmod if you want one so much
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to be fair, that guy is just a general brick
if i rememeber right he stated at one point to life in france
If you want to make a report about the empty weight of a plane, you are supposed to test it and prove your claim. Without testing, a report of this type usually cannot even be forwarded.
CBR is not a place for having discussions or arguments, you can use the Forums and once it is fully clear a proper report can be made.
You yourself have pointed out several explainations on why there could be weight differences between the two planes.
The report can be read and understood of course, sure it can be understood but perhaps next time do not use 3 separate numbered lists, especially for something so little that could be resumed in much less.
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Well, I guess it’s also a luck for Frenchies to get consistent buff for Rafale then.
definetly
Eurofighter is still severely reduced in capabilities to it’s real counterpart
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I get that, and I’m fine with 9,550 kg for now given the in‑game method. My post was made hours before the Developer Answer set 9,550 kg, so I couldn’t have known that at the time. I even adapted my numbers in case 9,550 kg was the path.
Understood. I just make the point clear and ask for consistency
Yes, there are possible explanations. But it’s not only about strengthening the lighter case. There are also reasons why the lead aircraft could be lighter for a defined period (config, consumables, minor hardware variations due maintenance, etc.). The BEA‑É doesn’t explain the cause, it only shows the numbers.
My point is about the size of the gap. For modern fighters, production/operational spread typically stays in the “dozens of kg” range. A ~100 kg delta is on the high side, especially for something as modular and tightly built as Rafale. That’s why treating 9,550 kg as a “definitive” catch‑all number feels off when the same source, after the same normalization (4,760 kg fuel, removing centerline pylon/ERU/empty tank), shows ~9,647 kg for the wingman.
Worth noting: per the report, the leader has 3,713 h, which is 1,200 h more than the wingman (2,513 h), yet the wingman is the heavier one. That keeps the “more hours → more weight” line questionable for this specific case. I also checked the history of these airframes and found no accident history that would obviously explain a large weight increase.
I’m not convinced it’s far off. I think we’re almost at the ideal area already; within about ±200 kg of where it is now should cover the realistic range. My only ask is not to treat 9,550 kg as a universal “definitive” number when the primary source shows two close but different outcomes, and to clarify the policy (lightest case, average, or factory‑new spec). If a single representative value is required, ~9.60 t sits between the two BEA‑É cases.
EDIT:
To be honest, I don’t know if there will be a next time. I’m already kind of tired of doing research because of inconsistencies in the game. During this exhausting process, I also noticed that the Rafales in the report didn’t have HMD yet (the French Rafales only received its first HMD at the end of 2022, and these Rafales crashed in May 2022.), so they’d still have to add around 3~5 kilos due to the HMD implementation. Is it worth my time? Definitely not. Will anyone notice? I don’t know…
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I don’t think it’s currently far off either. Developers didn’t take into account ammo being included in the weight for their conservative estimate even though HUD training footages do show ammo count in the aircraft.
The policy is already clear though for aircraft weight. Developers prefer aircraft manuals and those record the weight of an aircraft before leaving the factory. Many regulatory agencies require aircraft weight measurement to be conducted prior to the aircraft leaving the factory. As you can tell, this is when aircraft are at its lightest.
Here in this case developers use the crash investigation report because we do not have the aircraft manual and it is likely still classified. Both aircraft, the lead and wingman are not new aircraft.
For instance if the Rafale flight manual does become classified and the weight is lighter than what crash investigation report shows, there’s no reason not to report it and for developers to use the new weight.
Even when other aircraft show two primary sources with different weight numbers it is not new for developers to choose the lighter one. This happens all the time. Both cases are “primary” and here the developers chose the lighter one.
I will also say that one is more definitive than the other because the lead aircraft had full fuel (100%) and the wingman did not. So it is more precise in this regard to use the lead aircraft.
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caught back on this bug-report that have been made,… but no answer, no check so far by TechMods.
https://community.gaijin.net/issues/p/warthunder/i/guhaDQj6ga6j
Its an Dublicate, the Devs are allready aware of it
Rafale energy retention at high speeds has been reported and forwarded. I have also reported high altitude energy retention in turns as well.
https://community.gaijin.net/issues/p/warthunder/i/vBzbHgSGY6qS
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