How is it irrelevant. We are talking about plane performance and capability which decides br placement. I’m talking about how they effect my game play to give a concrete example. Then I’m suggesting something new to encourage positive change in game play.
This statement makes no sense.
You still never listed the redside 12.3 aircraft, I’m waiting.
Also you can keep br rotations under 12.3.
11.0-12.0, 11.3-12.0, 11.7-12.0
9.7-10.7, 10.0-11.0, 10.3-11.3
You know where you can find this data, and I know there are gaps.
I’m not talking about individual balance, BR-placement or even availability of suitable aircraft, but the whole BR-rotation system as a whole. I’m perfectly aware of the gaps there are in the tech trees for some countries and BR’s, but that’s not something I think can be solved by changing the BR-rotation system, especially not if it simply means to fix some brackets.
But also here: Concretely, what do you think should be changed to alleviate that issue with those gaps?
I think allowing more variety in the country setups could help in general: RED vs BLU doesn’t really make sense anymore anyway with the copy paste avalanche we’ve seen over the last years.
But I still don’t get why some bracktes should be fixed, others not. So what do we do if a next group comes and wants a hard split between guns and AAM’s? No radar and Radar? Hard split or make some brackets permanent as well?
The whole discussion here to me seems a lot like “I want to play XY, so I want Gaijin to accommodate my desires by changing their (overall working quite well…) system in a way that I can benefit from it as I want!”.
And a final note: I am very well aware of the many balance issues, gaps and in general shortcomings of Sim EC (also my preferred game mode), and by far settle down to blindly accept this as status quo. But the proposed “solutions” presented in this discussions are not solving any of those global issues, even if they may shift the problems around abit between BR’s and vehicles.
Just my personal view.
There actually is alot to benefit from. I could train a squadron of mirage 2000s4 , f14A and f18A pilots to be actually good. They would have to get good at evading, they would have to get good at dogfighting. We could reflect on what they did wrong and make improvements.
Instead we give them the false idea that they are superman until they get their feelings hurt with an uptier. Then they come here and say a plane is too over powered.
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The game solves the gaps by giving everyone f18s and f16s with subtrees.
Br gaps aren’t realy bad problem at below 12.3.
Guns verse missiles:unpopular opinion
a harrier 1 should shut up hit a forward operating base at 10.0 or higher.
Then move some of the missile interceptors above 9.0.
Or here’s a better idea separate sabre tier from missile interceptors?
How bad would it really be?
A perma 13.0 bracket isn’t really gonna fix anything either.
It’s just gonna be 13.0 spam
And if it is what’s the problem
“The whole discussion here to me seems a lot like “I want to play XY, so I want Gaijin to accommodate my desires by changing their (overall working quite well…) system in a way that I can benefit from it as I want!”.”
not sure how you can argue the system is ‘working quite well’ when the population has been readily documented as decreasing
also not sure how you can argue that giving players more choice , rather than a rigid centralized system , is either going to decrease the quality (population/enjoyment/etc) , or limit variety as feetpics explained
Sim EC has a lot of problems, like outdated targets and missions, not working AI, the economy, poorly implemented aircraft systems, which I believe affect player numbers more than the BR rotation system. I really see little to none disadvantage in the current system, even if (or exactly because) it incentivizes players to change what vehicles they play.
I tried to explain, aparently not well enough: With the complete freedom of what to play, the popular BR’s will make their neighboring BR’s more difficult to play, which is of course negative for those players who like to play those. If 95% of matches are played in 13.0, there will be few or no matches in say 12.7, 12.3, so people who like those will be forced to play 13.0, always being at a disadvantage and very rarely or never able to play as top BR.
This IS admittedly however only a theory or assumption of mine. ;-)
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Sim EC has a lot of problems,
ja , im still waiting for falkands or any other map to come to sim …
the economy of punishing repair costs is also a huge disincentive , which i think is indicative of the wider philosophical problem of how gaijin chooses to ‘encourage’ monetization – not through genuine enjoyment and desire to support , but through frustration and animosity , which essentially ties into the BR discussion
If 95% of matches are played in 13.0, there will be few or no matches in say 12.7,
this is simply untrue , if only for the reason of the thread title , fox3 power creep , which especially at the 13.0-13.7 range would generally be hard separated from 12.7
but you are still wrong for other reasons as well
there will always be a market for any particular BR range . simply because there is a user-created lobby that is 12.7-13.3 , doesnt mean that someone else cant create a 12.0-12.7 lobby , or whatever variety of choice
this is basic psychology ; its why sandbox games are enjoyable , you give people the freedom to do what they want , and they will create endless content
I really see little to none disadvantage in the current system, even if (or exactly because) it incentivizes players to change what vehicles they play.
do you come from an ex-soviet country , or an otherwise centralized authoritarian society ? because this seems to be the same mindset that gaijin has – a fundamental misunderstanding of freedom and market opportunity
How many 12.3 games do actually see. Who is dumb enough to fight gen4 aircraft like the netz,f18A and tomcat in mig 21 variants and mig 23?
Never said I was right, instead I made sure to keep repeating it’s my personal assumption, which may well be wrong.
On the contrary, I live in one of the strongest democracies, where people have an actual say over things.
But my observation - or again assumption: You let players do whatever they want, the keep repeatedly doing what they think they want, then get bored by it. What I think however is that it is well interesting as well no not always get what you want, but sometimes are motivated (or forced) to do something else instead, which you then realize is actually a lot of fun as well.
I for example rarely do the battle pass, but when I do, I’m “forced” to also shift my game focus, play different game modes perhaps, or trees, or vehicles, or vehicle classes, and again and again realize how much fun I’m having with that, while I feel to “stagnate” more when I only do “what I want”.
Not sure if this makes sense to anybody else, but it’s an observation - and not one restricted to gaming, but to life in general. Just raise kids, and you will notice the same patterns…
So much for pseudo-philosophy of the day from me haha!
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But my observation - or again assumption: You let players do whatever they want, the keep repeatedly doing what they think they want, then get bored by it.
this is easily disproven by the historic and longlasting success of games such as minecraft , rust , eve online , or any social based mmo
another great example , which also ties into monetization , is star citizen , where people are throwing seemingly endless money because the developers are building a game that will let them do whatever they want
but it’s an observation - and not one restricted to gaming, but to life in general. Just raise kids, and you will notice the same patterns…
we arent gaijins children , and they arent our betters – this is a transactional relationship that should be established on mutual respect and symbiotic benefit
I can do it with:
Bf 109 F-4 (any BR from 3.0 to 5.7)
P-51C (any BR from 3.0 to 5.7)
Probably Mustang Mk Ia (I see others bring it 3.0 to 5.7. I mostly keep it 3.0 to 5.0.)
P-38J (any BR from 3.0 to 5.0)
Tada’s Ki-61 (any BR from 3.0 to 5.0)
Yak-3 (any BR from 3.7 to 5.7)
F4U-4 (4.3-5.7)
The 5.7 cap is because 6.0 is Ju-288 spam and finding a fun lobby is more frustrating than it’s worth.
And probably most prop fighters. I know I’ve seen F6F-5s at 5.0+ lobbies but I’m nowhere good enough to use them up there, same for F4U-1 variants.
Barring a few excessive balance issues at WW2 BRs that can be abused to ruin lobbies, it seems it works much better at WW2 BRs. You can pick a plane and just fly that plane whenever you feel like without feeling severely disadvantaged.
Which is pretty important IMO. I noticed that if I stick to only flying 1 aircraft for a week I have WAY MORE fun flying that plane over constantly switching. Why? It allows me to acclimatize to that plane’s weird quirks and stop entering spins (or at least, recover very quickly) and instead let me focus on dogfight principles. My first few games returning to even a familiar aircraft after spamming another plane tend to have like 50-66% of my focus dedicated to just… flying the plane. After that, I dedicate most of that to situational awareness instead.
I think it makes it pretty clear that if you can’t do the same at jet BRs (even as low as korean jets due to Saggi 2, Sea Vixen, Ariete)… there’s an issue with the jets.
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Well said.
It incentivizes lobby shopping and the creation of effectively non-competitive games. We can go a layer even deeper into how lobby selection impacts the game.
Here is an example from a random player I ran into the other day; he is a consistent 5:1 kill to death ratio player in props and someone who I would consider to be reasonably experienced. I shot him down a few times in the game and this is the response to basically asking why he left.
So from now on I will never have to fight this guy and if he is in my game…he will always be on my team. This is purely because he recognizes that I am better at the game than he is.
Variations of this are not uncommon by the way; I am the only player in the game that I think has been reported enough and banned for playing against other players because if you do it too much (be in around 10% of their games) then that is a rules violation. However if I am always on their team then that doesn’t ruin the fun of farming newbs so it is not a rules violation.
If I form my own squadron with the explicit purpose of dominating the game mode and gathering as much salty tears from noobs and zombers…then that is A-Okay. However if I take that squadron and use it to blow up rival squadrons, stat-padders, meta-mobile spammers, random people I recongize as they farm noobs and zombers…well that is a rules violation.
So not only is the game pressure constantly towards creating non-competitive situations in the form of flavor of the day planes that are clearly better than everything else; but in order for the game to survive you need a constant influx of noobs to make sure that veteran players do not get bored (because they will not fight each other).
So at this point since the logical conclusion is to play the best plane of the day and on the best team…why not just make that a permanent fixture? What is the point of the rotation system if the logical conclusion is “do not play planes in up-tiers…play what is top of the bracket”?
Say for instance we take the F-18C Late at 12.7 which is one of the most popular planes in sim. It gets trashed at 13.3 and absolutely trashed at 13.7; and this effectively means that there are thousands of players that are basically shut off from having “fun” 50% of the time and where their only existence at high tiers is to feed kills to veteran players that purchased better planes and have full tech tree lineups? To me this doesn’t make a lot of sense and really just seems like justification to keep the status quo of keeping sim as just a noob farming mode so guys can pat themselves on the back about their stats?
Why not just replace the whole PvP aspect with named bots instead? If you look at the Aces Of Thunder push that is going on you will see that most content creators praise the named bots that fill up lobbies in that game. Why not implement that for sim and put all real players on one side?
This is from jaek…a pretty well known WT CC who is doing a sponsored review for AoT soon.
He likes shooting at bots in a game with a peak player count of around 50 players on a weekend over trying to shoot players in WT sim.
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IGN article “From Noob Farming to Bot Fariming the Alarming Descent of Warthunder”
World of tanks does this as well