Coastal map-modes NEED to leave Bluewater Top Tier's matchmaking

Conceptually it’s exactly the same. Bring the correct set of tools for the job at hand.

 

Phrasing “playing the objective” as something snarky is, again, not discussing in good faith.

 

I mean, if that’s literally the only option you can come up with, I’m not sure anything I suggest will make a difference.

I’ve been spending the last long while playing 7.0 battleships, and the last few weeks playing 6.0 cruisers… and doing just fine. Including dealing with caps. I could try to give a list of pointers, but you’re not arguing from a place of actually wanting advice, so it doesn’t seem like it’s worth the effort at the moment.

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And why is the “correct set of tools” in Bluewater Top Tier… some low tier coastal PT boat?

The issue on these maps is that this objective is virtually only accessible to PT boats. So what is the point of spawning BBs, BCs and CCs, if they can’t compete?

No, I’m arguing from a place of actually being able to play Battleships without being rendered useless by some PT boat ending the match in 5 minutes before I can even get anywhere remotely close to the battle zone.

BRs are a maximum, not a minimum; plenty of vehicles are extremely useful above their BRs, and that’s intentional.

 

Which is unfortunate, but also an “external” factor that doesn’t factor in to game design/balance.

 

On open water maps sure, but those aren’t relevant to this discussion. DDs can be plenty useful in very situational ways in higher tier matches (though not as much as they will be with subs).

Regardless, anything bluewater is a counter to PTs, including BBs. Taking cruisers into crowded island caps and mowing down all the PT boats is actually quite fun.

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Usually thoses are bots… So the game decide who win.

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“Why is the correct set of tools in ‘tank battles’… a plane?”

 

I am “actually” able to play battleships all the time. This is not a game issue, it’s a player issue.

You’re using all the same extreme and silly arguments as the “tank only” types around here, namely claims which assume the premise, and thus are being made in bad faith.

Again, not the same. Planes are extremely capable when it comes to kills, but not mission win conditions.

The equivalent to tue current state of PT boats in some maps would be as if the only way to win Ground Battles were to cap plane-only accessible caps at airfields. So you are forced to spawn planes to cap those airfield caps, and, if you try to play ground vehicles, you just can’t win.

Spawn Battleship, enemy spawns PT, they cap, match is over within 5 minutes due to ticket bleed. How exactly is that a “player issue”?

Well seeing as you’re determined to be very… literal, there’s not much point trying to correct this.

 

So your entire team, every single player on it, does not decap that point or cap either of the other two for a whole quarter of the match. Not by using a scout plane (which most high-BR ships have), not by first-spawning or respawning in a boat/floatplane (implying literally no one on your team dies in that whole time), and… it’s the game’s fault?

No. If the enemy team takes one cap and no one in the entire match does anything about it, that’s a well deserved loss.

 

Just because you personally aren’t in a position to do something (again, scout plane and sailing towards the nearest cap are both options) doesn’t mean it’s the game’s fault when literally no one else on your team does anything about it either.

If you’re in a 12v12 match, you’re only 8% responsible for the outcome, after all.

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Why should players be forced to give up on playing the intended vehicles of a BR range in order to play a completely different class of vehicle they clearly did not join to play for?

And scout planes get pilot-sniped by OP AI AAAs from 3km away 99% of the times, and, as stated, not every ship has them anyway, for example, Baden, as I was using that match.

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“Why do I have to spawn a plane/SPAA in a tank game?”

 

Goofy hyperbolic statements do not make for sound arguments. But regardless, yes, Naval AI AA is very powerful against both planes and PT boats, so you should be trying to cap accordingly.

This also directly contradicts your own premise here, as you’re now claiming it’s “impossible” for you to cap… despite the enemy team “always” doing so.

 

Maybe they don’t, but not every vehicle can do everything. That’s part of the decision you make when you spawn any vehicle, they all have different capabilities.

You’re not “owed” the ability to singlehandedly change the outcome of a match at every single possible moment singlehandedly, because you’re not the main character.

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Seriously, I can’t think of a more apple-oranges kind of comparison.

Planes are powerfulbut NOT A REQUIREMENT to win. In some maps, PT boats are straight up a requirement to win.

Impossible to cap on an actual ship, not impossible if you decide that your new gameplay cycle will consist of spawning some torpedo boat to cap and then do nothing for the rest of the match. But if you try to actually spawn a ship to have naval combat, yeah, the match will be over before you reach a cap.

This is exactly what PT boats do; change the outcome of a match every single game on these maps just by capping at the start, screwing over each and every single player merely attempting to have some resemblance of fun on actual Capital Ships, which are the ones found at that BR range.


Again; imagine how ridiculous Ground Battles would be if you were REQUIRED to spawn planes to cap airfield-based caps which ground vehicles can not cap.

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Never required, just very useful.

 

More hyperbole. Nope, I’ve capped plenty of points with cruisers and battleships.

 

You’re really on a roll with these extreme claims, it seems. You’re not looking for a design/balance discussion, you’re venting (probably right after a match) and looking for people to pat you on the back and agree.

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So how exactly should I have saved the match via capping in this situation?

A single enemy PT boat capped A and B, way, WAY far outside my reach in SMS Baden. Even if I had managed to reach C, it would have changed nothing, and the match still ended before I could reach it anyway.

So how is this a “me issue” and not an “a whole bluewater match was determined by a single PT boat” issue?

The tools for the job depend on the job - in the various multi-cap point maps coastal ARE the best tool for the job in many of the cap points.

But it is also true that someone getting a DD or CL into some of the more congested points can clean up a dozen or more coastal units in pretty short order, and in my games this is a common occurrence too.

the fact is you get a variety of maps and game modes, and if you are not preparing your lineup to be competitive for that then you are the problem as the game stands right now.

Sure you can advocate for different styles of maps, but we don’t have them and even if there was to be a change that would likely take months - so what are you doing to help your team in games right now?

It is a “your team” issue because apparently no one in your team thought to cap A and B despite the map being right there in everyone’s face when y’all chose which units to bring.

You are obviously aware of the issue (the point of this thread!), so why did YOU choose to bring a slow BB and not a PT boat first up to cap, and then die or even abandon, KNOWING how the game works? Because yo wanted to play a BB - fair enough - well you could have played the BB as your 2nd vessel, but you chose not to - decisions have consequences.

ETA to add that a DD spawning near B would have destroyed the enemy PT boat and likely gotten A and B too… this map is mostly a mid-level map for me - CL’s and especially DD’s, so spawning at B is very familiar.

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First, another reminder that you’re not the main character; everyone on your team is responsible for a win or loss. It’s also important to remember that it is possible to commit no mistakes and still lose; being outplayed does not require you yourself screwing up.

 

That being said, first, literally everyone on your team chose to not play the objective. Not a single person spawned near A/B (on one of the best maps to do so no less, with DDs being almost entirely hidden from the cruiser/BB spawn, and PTs entirely safe) and without a single scout plane in the air in that direction either.

War is a team sport, and you’ve all collectively screwed up if everyone decides it’s “not my problem”.

 

Second, your lineup could use improvement. I certainly have no issue with people playing things just because they like them, but as this is a “practical” discussion let’s take a look from that perspective.

 


 

You have:

  • SMS Baden - Your only at-BR ship is a WWI-era BB with nearly no AA and no scout plane. This isn’t inherently bad, but it’s a choice you’ve made knowing the ship’s capabilities.

  • SMS Von der Tann - Your backup is all the way down at 6.3, and is yet another WWI ship. I assume she’s your highest in the tech tree, but backing up a 7.0 WWI BB with a 6.3 WWI BB is… not stellar. Probably better to wait to play Baden until you at least have a 6.7 (though Germany doesn’t currently have any), or ideally another 7.0. And she isn’t even spaded, which is even worse as it means you’re trying to spade a 6.3 BB at 7.0. All around bad choices here.

  • Emden - A 5.0 cruiser, and not even a great one at that? In a 7.0 lineup? If you’re going to bring an even-lower bluewater, at least make it a DD for the closer spawn, faster speed, smaller size, and (more) torpedoes. Not sure why she’s here at all. She’s also unspaded, again.

  • S 204 Lang - Quite solid for a PT boat selection, and is a premium too. Good speed, has torps (those two are mandatory), along with good guns if facing other PT types. I do question having such a low crew level and not even Experting her though; it’s a good idea to invest in the crew skills as your PT of choice shouldn’t ever change in bluewater lineups (same for floatplane).

  • Bf 110 G-2 - I don’t see the logic here. It’s a heavy fighter so will lose to any enemy fighter that’s up, but has a limited bombload and no bombsight so can’t hit ships from altitude outside (or at least further from) their AA fire, no torpedoes, and also isn’t a floatplane so can’t cap. It’s… also unspaded? The Bf 110 has essentially zero points in its favour in Naval. If you’re looking to hit ships, bring a heavy bomber. Heck, Germany even gets access to the Fritz-X with the He 111 H-6 (2.3!) and He 177.

  • No floatplane - Considering none of your three bluewater ships have a scout plane, not taking one in your lineup as well is awful decision making. I really can’t stress this enough. Bring along the BV 138 or He 115; like the PT, it should be in every bluewater lineup.

 

TL;DR - Don’t play 7.0 with a single WWI BB and only an unspaded(!) 6.3 WWI BB and unspaded(!) 5.0 cruiser as backup. Don’t fail to bring a floatplane, especially when not a single one of your ships has a scout plane. Don’t bring unspaded vehicles above their own BRs.

And remember that on a team of 16, you’re only 6% responsible for the match’s outcome. If 100% of your team has the same lineup and objective decision making, yeah, you’re likely to lose here.

 


 

Some additional notes, it looks like you’re trying to cut across your team and beeline for C, while also targeting the closest but most “irrelevant” (in terms of positioning) enemies, which is not a great plan.

By cutting straight to C you’re moving towards the enemy team in a way that makes you stand out and become an obvious target, especially when also making for an objective.

You’re also targeting some of the enemies it would be better to leave alone and have target your teammates, while you shell that trio of enemies who are far closer to the two capped objectives, and thus a major threat to your team’s potential attempts to cap (especially if PTs/floatplanes, or even DDs).

Going for C is also not at all helpful, since even if you manage to get there and cap without dying, you’ll, one, likely die shortly after because you made yourself such a juicy target (as mentioned), but more importantly it won’t even stop the ticket bleed. You’re far better off trying to stay on the further side of your team, especially paired with focusing on the enemies which are a greater threat to the objectives, and which likely also (probably being cruisers) are less of a threat to you in terms of return fire.

Much like one of the most important things in Air RB is never being the first red name to pop up, not drawing attention is a huge part of doing well in Naval. Do not “poke” players unless you can take the return hits (to the degree that it’s often good to switch AI gunners to Air-only to avoid them uselessly prodding enemy BBs, in situations like this).

 

Putting aside issues caused by your lineup choices, what you likely should be doing in this scenario now that you’re in it is to (as mentioned) stay towards the far side of your team and attack the lighter, faster enemies which are a greater threat to the caps, while also trying to sail on the far side of the main islands for cover.

More generally, one should also never spawn right on the initial timer. Much like that “first red name in Air RB thing”, players and especially AI gunners / named bots love to attack the first thing they see and keep doing so until it/they die. Always wait 5-10 seconds. This also gives you a chance to check out your team’s lineup and initial spawn choices (such as perhaps needing to use a PT/plane or DD).

In short, while only so much can be seen on a map screenshot, there’s a lot that could be improved here.

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naval is in need of a total overhaul as the grind is crazy long even with premium 15 kills to make any profit

So the ONLY way to play the objective in Bluewater Top Tier is… with a PT boat? See the problem here?

2 out of 3 objectives were on the PT boat exclusive area. All of us were trying to play the objective, just the actual Bluewater one, the C point.

This is solved, I unlocked Scharnhorst just today, spading right now.

For EC mode- a 4.7-5.0 vessel is required.

It’s my proto-Dauntless, xd. The 1,000kg bomb does quite a lot of damage; and, as far as I can see, the HE-111s don’t even have much better of a payload, at 2x1,000kgs instead of 1. Me 264 can carry 2x1,800 kg, which is interesting, however.


Regardless, I appreciate your comment! Definitely put some thought and time on it.

you could also use a float plane i tend to do that kinda there main purpsose in this game and good luck on the scarnhorst its fun but takes decades to get into matches

Thanks! Yeah… been waiting for 8 minutes now and still nothing… 150% booster :/

Nope. Please drop the hyperbole if you actually intended to have a discussion. Or rather, if you intend to take any advice, as that’s what seems to be needed here.

 

Your team is doing precisely the opposite of that. I’ve already explained this in depth and taken time to give you helpful tips. This has stopped being a “debate” and become you needing to improve your gameplay decisions.

 

Good. Hopefully you’ll also replace Emden and the 110 with actually-useful options, and add a floatplane.

 

That is… utterly irrelevant to normal Naval. Are you seriously trying to bring a built-for-EC lineup into normal matches? Swap her out; even a DD would be far more useful.

 

Be sure to have all three server regions enabled. I can’t remember the last time I’ve meaningfully had to wait for Naval matches.

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Literally TWICE the load… plus a bombsight…

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