In SB Reserve tanks are bullied by mid/late war Pumas, Tigers are very well documented as having magical armour that bounces things that it shouldn’t, the Panther’s turret is also still bugged and bounces rounds that it blatantly shouldn’t and once again still hasn’t been fixed and won’t be.
On top of this due to terrible game mechanics German tanks are naturally over performing. They have the magical combination of some of the highest penetrating guns along with broken APHE and thick armour with absolutely zero disadvantages that they historically had.
To further elaborate let me put it this way. We all know that APHE is wickedly overperforming at this moment in time, not only are zero of the drawbacks modelled but the effect of the internal damage is that of pure fantasy. Gaijin themselves have said that it’s not performing as it should so they’re going to put it to a “vote” to see if people want it historically nerfed.
Now to put things into perspective the biggest threat to Germany is tanks that can fire SABOT. Except Gaijin decided to make SABOT rounds “shatter” when they really shouldn’t. Where was the vote on this? There wasn’t one.
The interesting fact is that APHE also liked to shatter, the fuses also liked to misbehave and either explode on the outside of the tank or refuse to detonate on the inside of the tank. Is any of this modelled which would restore a modicum of balance? Not on your Nelly.
Also yes, Russia also uses APHE which also shouldn’t one click delete tanks but Russia isn’t even close to being on the same level as Germany in the WW2 tiers. The guns have less penetration and the armour is considerably worse.
Historically Nerf APHE or stop the shell shattering for AP while improving its damage and watch how German mains complain and beg for it to be reverted as they tend to do (190/109 performance, APHE original nerf etc etc…).
Well now that Q5L can see Pantsir I still don’t think it is fair, a CAS with no flares should not go to this high of a BR. There need to be further stretch of both Ground BR and Air BR, especially with the addition of Su27SM.
I have now played with the tiger H1, it does not feel the same as the one tap delete as the 100mm or 85mm. I understand that it is quite strong, but to say that it is OP, I think is just the numbers. The number disadvantage present in WWII is not in WT, so it seems as if you are getting killed all the time, and Magical WT armour happens all the time, whilst the German tanks like panther D and tiger H1 do have very bad turret traverse.
Not overpowered can you explain to me how a Jet can kill tanks +30km away easily and get + 4 kills and a radar can detect if an enemy SPAA launched a missile, and no SPAA can shoot it down, isn’t overpowered.
Yeah I have played with the ItO90 recently too, and haven’t had much trouble intercepting missiles so far. Missiles coming directly towards the SAM are trivial to intercept, but those going for teammates are much harder and have to be intercepted at longer ranges as they are too fast to intercept within 2km.
You also have double the amount of missiles compared to a Su-25SM3. If you need more, head over to a cap point to have an unlimited supply of them.
Side note: it seems that the IRST tracking bug for it has been fixed. Though I haven’t tested this fully yet. This would mean that the US and UK are able to reliably intercept them as well, making it much less of an issue.
The mode is ground RB not tank RB. I am curious though, how do you decide what the mode is meant to be?
Yes but this isn’t a problem unique to war thunder (think healers in Overwatch/medic in TF2). Spawning SPAA can be a necessity to win but not many people want to do it as you have to stare at the radar screen for a while before any aircraft show up. I think that the game designers for WT have to make this more engaging and rewarding to promote the use of SPAA.
Well, yeah that’s kinda the point. An aircraft is almost always going to be a lot more powerful than an MBT. Its not meant to be a fair interaction. This is also why aircraft cost significantly more SP to spawn when compared to tanks.
Instead, view the situation like this: You are being punished because your team does not have adequate SPAA cover.
You might not, but you aren’t representative of the entire playerbase. To me, Gaijin clearly thinks that the majority of playerbase is not willing to wait above 1-2 mins per match. Because of that, solutions like this are unacceptable. If you want change, you will have to prove it. Go do a community poll or a petition idk.
The Sd Kfz 234/s is 3.7 in sim. It doesn’t SEE reserve. The 234/1 has the same armament as Pz IIs.
Actual skill issue, there is no change in armor or damage models between RB and Sim.
Volumetric at work, and it’s far from the only tank that benefits from this. Jumbo MG ports are notoriously unreliable.
Because NONE of that is modeled in WT for ANY TANK. The KV tanks were notoriously unreliable, as was the IS-3. The Chieftain had constant engine troubles. The Pershing also had drivetrain issues. The Sheridan and Starship would often cook their electronics when firing the Shillelagh ATGM.
As for the guns, many other cannons in other nations have identical or better performance than german ones.
Wow, you mean like when they made APCR shit years ago, which Germany has in pretty much ALL their WW2 tanks, probably more so than any other nation?
Damn that’s crazy.
…And how is this relevant? I thought this was gonna be about germany, not some schizo rant on APHE damage, and pretty much every nation gets APHE.
T-34-57 has a gun very similar in caliber to the german 5cm L/60, with way more penetration and HE filler, on a tank with better mobility and armor. Russian 100mm is very good too, and they get post-war APHE slingers with MUCH higher damage and penetration than anything german.
Which is also inaccurate, because by all pilots’ accounts that we have, the 190 is way underperforming in maneuverability, and A models are overheating too much due to a russian bug report that was passed with ZERO SOURCES.
The 109s are missing a fair bit of turn performance due to limited AoA (so much so that the leading edge slats don’t even deploy), with a few models overheating too much.
By the way, since you mentioned “none of the disadvantages they historically had”, I look forward to P-51 guns jamming after high G turns, or both american and british WW2 20mm guns simply jamming randomly, regardless of heat level.
Yes it does. Wait for the next rotation for BR 1.0-2.0 and you’ll most certainly see Puma’s dancing around Tetrarch’s and rushing straight to spawn camp. I’m guessing you play RB or AB as if you were a Sim player you’d know this has been a massive problem for a while now. There’s nothing like taking something like an M3 Lee and getting lolpenned through the front by a light tank with oddly bouncy armour speeding around corners at 40mph.
Come join a 1.0-2.0SB game and count the Puma’s.
It’s a skill issue for APDS and even the 17lber to bounce off of the side of Tiger turrets and the view port is it? Once again a widely documented issue that hasn’t been touched. Add to this the at times wildly inaccurate nature of these guns compared to German laserbeams and then try to tell me it’s a “skill issue”.
Also interesting that the first line of defence is “skill issue!” when it’s the Wehraboos that are sjitting their pants about the potential APHE change. You won’t be able to OHK crews with poor shots any more?! Shock horror! Welcome to reality and a realistic/level playing field.
The Panther turret was spotty even before volumetric, now it’s even worse thanks to even silly things like HE nerfs so even tanks like the Su-122 struggle to kill them with turret hits. This never used to be the case but uniquely it seem to benefit Germany quite well doesn’t it?
In WW2 tiers? The 88mm is the best gun bar none. Fast reload rate, massive penetration and absolutely broken APHE that can 1-hit nuke even a cavernous Tortoise due to hand holding mechanics. The Panther also has a high penetrating 1-hit kill nuke. Please don’t tell me you consider the Russian guns equal. Just take a look at the reload rate and penetration values. Also don’t mention “HE filler” as it’s a completely useless metric.
On paper the APDS launchers should be even better… but thanks to measures to gimp them they’re awful in comparison. Again look at how APHE is a magical death orb with zero historical setbacks and now look at APDS, if you can’t see that certain parties (and one in particular) is getting its hand held you’re blind.
Bit of an own goal here, they nerfed APCR along with APDS… but they still have to bring the change of APHE to a “vote”. Also Germany was my main nation until I started seeing the imbalance in WW2 tiers and out of experience I can say that APCR nerf didn’t hurt Germany at all and you know it too. If you’re using APCR when the other round you have turns the game into a one-click adventure game you’re gimping yourself.
Because Germany just so happens to have the highest penetrating APHE in most tiers and is the biggest abuser of the round. Not to mention it seems like the German mains are the ones crying about the “vote” just like how they were the ones saying that the Tiger was “useless” when it was nerfed before because they couldn’t one-shot Jumbo Shermans through the MG port… the same Sherman that has to knock out the Tiger’s gun and tracks and waddle to the side of said Tiger to finally kill it (as long as the mystical German side armour doesn’t “bounce” at point blank which yes… can and does happen).
It’s the German playerbase that whines the most and Gaijin for whatever reason listens to them whether it’s air or ground. Thanks to them we can kill tanks with the Tiger or Panther in one hit to a cupola. Which is absolutely and utterly ridiculous. So yes, APHE is broken across the board… but it’s Germany that benefits the most and also whines the most to protect it. Next.
No.
For the simple fact that you’re blissfully ignoring the Pz IVF2 which sits at an even lower BR than the T-34 you mentioned and has almost identical performance. Again, own goal and further proving my point.
“Much higher damage than anything German”!
No again. As mentioned HE filler is a useless metric due to how broken APHE is. The Russians do not do “more damage” as even the tiny explosive filler in a T-50 is enough to kill something like a PzIV in one shot. Don’t believe me? Go to the test range and find out.
Calculating damage through “HE Filler!” is a useless metric. The 88mm will one shot everything it faces and you can’t get more dead than dead. As mentioned any penetrating round that isn’t the cupola on even the cavernous and massively crewed Tortoise WILL kill it.
Also if you’re referring to the T-44-100 it has almost identical penetration to the long 88…so you’re even wrong there.
The 190’s flight model is a creation that occurred due to German pilots funnily enough. A while back the 190 had an amazing flight model, it was agile but much like the real thing required a careful hand when flying it. Pilot accounts both old and new state that it had a snappy stall when pushed and the A’s have a tendency to tighten up in turns (very much like the Spitfire at the moment…) and guess what happened?
German pilots moaned it was too hard to fly and they buffed its stability to the point where it could barely pull. Turn tightening? Gone, snappy stall? Gone. Instead replaced with a flight model that barely stalls at all. In an attempt to make the 190 easier to fly they’ve neutered it. Well done, you’ve done it yourself.
Also the A models were known for overheating issues, this is the one good change they’ve made.
As for the 109 are you sure you’re playing without an instructor?? I can pull the 109’s until the slats deploy no trouble at all. If anything the 109 is massively overperforming especially in high speed manoeuvres, again back in the day the 109 stiffened up as it should and is massively reported. Once again on the old forum RB players whined and said “I can’t BnZ as I lock up!” and tadaaa we have magical 109 elevators.
It’s because of this that many 109 pilots like to abuse the pitch trim exploit by getting into a high speed dive and then maxing out the trim to pull inhuman 180 degree turns.
I won’t go into the lack of torque effects nor the fact that the 109 also tightened up in turns, nor the fact that none of the negative characteristics of early 109 slat performance is modelled at all but they sure got the positives in there
Actually until upgraded Hispano’s do jam unless they’ve changed something. I wouldn’t have an issue with P-51 guns jamming I’m all for more realism across the board. On the topic of guns though I wonder what did you think when MG-151’s used to 1-shot bombers? Literally one round. Funny how some German mains want everything nerfed and yet they kept very quiet about that. They sure complained when they got nerfed back to reality though and they HATED realshatter…
I won’t respond as this is largely off topic from the guy’s original thread and it isn’t fair. But think about some of these points.
I don’t make it a habit of playing Sim at reserve tiers. Also, a Lee is more than capable of dealing with a Puma.
Sounds like you shouldn’t use APDS when it is a known bad shell then. Never had an issue with a side turret shot in any of the japanese tanks that see Tigers, with far less penetration than a 17pdr.
You do know that it’s not only germany that uses APHE, right? Even a britbong should know they aren’t the center of the universe.
The empire has long since withered away.
Since when is an SU-122 seeing Panthers?
HE nerfs benefit many more tanks. IS-1 and IS-2s are virtually impenetrable to 155mm HE from any angle unless you hit the cupola. But of course, those aren’t german so you’re not interested.
Because ONLY GERMANY gets APHE capable of getting through one of the worst armor layouts in a vehicle this slow.
By the way that’s not even the thinnest spot, you can find a few 95-100mm thick parts.
It is quite important, as having above a certain threshold of HE filler allows any penetrating shot to overpressure the crew - none of the german guns aside from the 128s and 105s can do this.
The Panther has a paltry 25g of filler. This will often leave crew alive in the same compartment that it detonated in, even in a relatively tight space like a turret:
Angled penetration modifiers on russian shells is a meme for a reason. Against 60deg angled armor, the 76mm L-11 in the first T-34s has almost as good penetration as the long 75mm on the Pz IV F2. In practice this means they have a LOT of weird angles they can penetrate you at, that a german gun of the same caliber never will.
If you’re only looking at raw penetration, the issue is you. Very few nations used APDS in WW2, where it was horribly inaccurate - have that for a “historical setback”. Most stuck to APCR or didn’t make a high velocity solid shot at all.
Germany is also missing its APHEDS shells for a number of cannons.
They did not, APCR has been nerfed since the early days of ground forces, while APDS only got nerfed relatively recently in the WT history timeline.
APCR should be unnerfed as it performed similar to APDS IRL and didn’t disappear when it met a slight angle in the armor hit.
Because they put those guns on some of the worst platforms ever. The 128mm on the Sturer Emil may have a lot of penetration but that vehicle is garbage. The Nashorn has zero protection and no depression. The Waffentrager is comically underpowered.
Yeah maybe if the USA had taken the long 90mm from the T26E1 and stuck it on an M7 Priest they’d have a counterpart - but they didn’t.
No other nation really had such a need for cheap, easy to produce tank destroyers with great guns either.
It’s very easy to cherrypick the worst of the worst players, just like it was very easy to find USA mains complaining that the Jumbo couldn’t club at 4.7 anymore, or Britain mains complaining that all their undertiered, 2-plane-stabilized MBTs started getting moved up and couldn’t fight WW2 tanks all the time anymore.
Or pretty much any nation’s air players complaining about the Zero.
Yes yes, which is why ALL the bugs in the Puma IFV have been fixed! (they haven’t)
Yep yet another flawless oneshot by the long 88mm.
You should take your own advice and go to the test range and “find out”. LOL.
All the production A models past the very early ones didn’t have overheating issues, that is the entire point in having a big cooling fan at the front.
Again, it’s simply incorrect. I don’t really give a shit as to what reasons they might or might not have had.
Why would I play without instructor in a mode that isn’t Sim?
They lock up past 600kph just fine. You’re delusional.
Also the trim pitch trick works in literally everything and it’s a somewhat common trick in top tier rate fighting, at least in the more competitive scene.
For all your talk about “playing without an instructor”, its clear you never took off without one. 109s got more torque than almost any other single engine fighter, maybe only beaten by the spitfire with its comically narrow and poorly designed landing gear.
There’s also no negative characteristics modeled for MANY more aircraft features, but don’t let facts get in the way of a good germany bashing.
They don’t jam randomly. They overheat very fast, which is different.
You mean the same way I hear no britain mains complaining that Hispanos are too strong and MG151s are too weak, but did the exact opposite years ago? Or the same way I hear no P-51 players say that the C is comically undertiered and doesn’t belong there?
Or the same way EVERYONE complained when all aircraft 20mm cannons were brought to more realistic damage levels and they could no longer onetap aircraft?
Gee, its almost as if people don’t tend to complain about X when X benefits them, and complain about X when it affects them negatively!
Oneshotting bombers is obviously a bug and not intended.
I’m not going to respond to the whole thing as I’ll end up writing another book.
But all I’ll say is for the love of god DON’T use the armour viewer to prove a point. It’s broken.
Have some actual in game footage. T-50 Vs PZIV one shot straight through the front. I even let the tank respawn in so you can see there’s no funny business.
Also I did some testing with the 109 in SB, 600kmh the aircraft is perfectly responsive. Mark Hannah himself said that at 600kmh you needed two hands to pull and that stick forces begin to stiffen at even 400kmh.
He was also flying a G10… I only tested the G6, the supposed worst 109.
At 600kph, an E-4 is only pulling ~5deg AoA, instead of the 13deg it pulls at lower speeds. The G6 is compressing later and at 650kph you noticeably lose a lot of turn rate, but WT pilots are built different.
That is a Pz IV C. Of course shooting that one center mass will kill it.
I have the problem of Tor M1 not being able to destroy the missiles when it hits, does this also happen with other SPAA? The Tor gets 1 shot to intercept since the vertical launch takes time to adjust the missile position, and I have been recently annoyed by the Tor not able to destroy the missiles.
I think the current SPAA base is quite bad, Japan only have 8km IR missile which are good but not top tier. China’s SPAA is not even a SAM anymore, but has to operate like a SAM, with 12 km range unlike the 30+ range in real life. US and UK literally have a half SAM + half ATGM carrier.
I would personally really like the current SPAAs to change, e.g., for 625E to come in for chinese AA or bring in HQ17 A which is a wheeled variant of Tor M1
The pilots in game are machines, but it doesn’t change the fact that almost all other aircraft compress like they should. Almost all WW2 Russian aircraft lock up badly at 500kmh indicated whereas 109’s largely do not. I’ve done testing on a G-6 as mentioned and at 650kmh it stiffens but only marginally. Until that point it’s perfectly responsive losing at most only 10% of its pull. This is NOT reality.
In regards to the video you’re clutching at straws, the video shows a miniscule 19gr explosive from a small round detonating inside of the tank and killing it through crew knockout with almost all crew members dead. You can’t sidestep this and say “ah that’s the wrong panzer IV though!”
I’ll genuinely stop now as I think we’re just going to continue to agree to disagree.
How is a russian aircraft relevant to a german one? By that line of reasoning, all props should start compressing at ~450kph because that’s when the Zero started compressing IRL, and anything above that is “not reality”.
