Did a little bit of research and according to this, the panzerworld armor pen table, Armor Penetration Table
the Tiger 2 Kwk 43 cannon firing Panzergrenate 39/43 only penetrates about 203 millimeters compared to the current 237, the 75 millimeters on the Panzer IVs only gets about 70 to 100 mils of pen at max, and the 128 firing Panzergranate, specifically the Pak 80, extremely similar to the Maus gun, only gets 166 millimeters of penetration. Rebalancing stuff with realism would actually wind up with some much more historical matchups, Tiger 2s fighting late 76 Shermans and Jumbos, the Maus would be fighting the late war US heavies, and Panzer IVs would probably be much closer to 3.0, maybe a little higher to account for them having pretty good armor in a downtier already at 4.0. I would at least be interested to see this on the dev server.
even the 1.0 I-15bis can kill it with the 50kg bombs lol
No, it would not. You can look at battle rankings all you want as part of penetration and “mY rEaLiSm”
But you fail to understand that just because you made vehicles have realistic penetrations ≠ Battle Rankings.
The “realism” has nothing to do with it. Perhaps I misstated this a bit, but nearly doubling the pen on the american 76 and reducing the Tiger 2, Panzer IV, and Maus would make them much more comparable to each other. The 76 could do what it actually did and pen the Tiger mantlet and side with ease, the Panzer IV moves down a little to face lighter stuff albeit that’s negligible, it’s pretty strong at 4.0 and nerfing the pen would probably on put it down at 3.7, if it even had performance issues. It’d probably just be more on par with the early T34s. And I don’t fail to understand anything. I don’t expect Gaijin to rank stuff purely based on historical accuracy. I’d be dumber than their balance department if I did. I also specifically said
by which I meant, as should’ve been pretty clear, if you make the rounds historically accurate the balance becomes more historical as well. While my theories in that comment may not have been exact as to the optimal balance, at the very least we can’t forget that stuff like the Sherman Firefly destroyed A LOT of Tiger 1s and 2s in WWII. Now, that’s not to say we should make everything perfectly based on history as I’ve already said, but making the rounds perform accurately places things most closer to their historical performance, that is to say their historical matchups as well.
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Also, while I do not agree with the penetration lowering, I don’t.
I do not think the Maus could go down. Cause once again, doubling the penetration would make no difference; the Maus’s armor went up to 240+ thickness. So it would not be lowered or raised. Cause it would simply dominate below; it gets screwed over if placed at a higher BR.
In terms of everything else you said, once again, penetration has nothing to do with the BR.
It’s players. You give us more penetration, and BR’s are going all over the place cause many vehicles will overperform in downtiers and perform poorly at uptiers.
Hell. I’ve had matches where a single scout was enough.
Yeah now go play a nation that does not have any roof mgs and tell me how enjoyable it is.
You literally got into an argument with 2 extremes of the CAS debate in 1 thread somehow.
Why is your assumption that I mean the american T34 instead of the russian one that the Panzers actually fight?
That’s something to test on the dev server. Because of the 76 then receiving 200+ millimeters of penetration, it would be entirely possible for even an M18 to pen it from the side, let alone something with a 90 mil. Combined with the serious debuffs to the Maus and it could well be balanced, but again that would have to be more precisely tested by actually playing it.
I understand where that comes from, but the literal ENTIRE argument against the Maus going down was just that nothing can pen it and it can pen everything currently. It very much does influence the br, and while say a 30 mil pen drop might not be cause to move something like the Tiger 2 down to like 5.0 a 100+ millimeter pen gain is absolutely cause to move something like the M4A2/M4A3 76W up from 5.7 to 6.0, maybe even 6.3 if it can perform.
Maybe because T34 is the US Designation for a Prototype heavy tank.
T-34 is the russian designation for the Soviet junk excuse they called a Medium tank. Which is nothing but a glorified BT-2.
A dev server is not the live server; the information that is used on a Dev server is often very different from how it would function on the Live server. This is no different from how a Prototype vs. its production model would work.
Mate, the reason the vehicle was hidden in the first place was that in Downtiers, 5 of them screwed combat. Cause all they had to do was sit back and use their 128, or 75mm when anything got close. Your argument still falls flat since you think the Maus will be more killable cause penetration went up, when in reality it wouldn’t. Frontally, the Maus’s armor would still deflect or absorb nearly all rounds. Once players realize it was purposely lowered in BR, we will get a repeat of events that occurred years ago, which is Maus spam. 1->2 Maus tanks are not an issue.
3->5 become a problem, and if the whole other team is about 95% Maus tanks, then good luck cause it gets harder when there are fewer Maus Tanks. Since you start focusing on the smaller prey than the Maus.
In an Uptier, our eyes were all red.
That’s a bit of a strong term for one of the highest performing tanks in WWII, and still I don’t understand where the thought comes from that it’d put the Panzers on par with prototype US heavies instead of you know, the Russian mediums they currently fight, but anyway.
No, it’s not a live server, but it does work for general play testing and confirming how something can practically perform against tanks in battle.
Well how easy something is to kill is very closely tied to how easy it is to pen, but whatever. I’m not starting that whole argument again since it clearly isn’t going anywhere. I do understand why it’s limited, and I don’t think it should be normal stock, but it is possible to make lower tier vehicles able to kill it and still have them be balanced. You really can’t deny that making stuff like the long 90 much more accurate, aka much much better would drastically improve it’s chances in a fight against the Maus, whether it still loses or not.
Just wow. I hope for your sake there isn’t a russian main in this thread because not only is that so incredibly wrong, but anybody who’s played or fought against those things knows that’s practically the worst insult possible to any russian player.
The freaking point of a super heavy tank is armor if you place it in a rank where it doesn’t even matter what armor you have couse every shot you take pens 600mm at any range then whats even the point of playing it.
i think 7.3 is a good spot for the maus, it’s armor ACTUALLY matters a little bit more and if you really REALLY wanna take it down fly a plane with a bomb and it’s gone for ever or play more tactically flank it and shoot it in it’s weak spots.
like what’s the point in putting a tank that relies on armor if the armor makes no diffrence, that’s why light tanks dominate the game couse you fight shit that straight up ignores your protection.
Not every single tank can take it down and it shouldn’t couse if they can then what’s even the point of playing an armored vehicle. that’s the reason why heavy tanks are dreadfull to play, you move slow, you get taken out like nothing anyways so why should i even be able to play it what’s the point? i don’t understand this argument if every tank that has armor as to be so up BRd that it doesn’t really matter what armor they got on then what is the point or that armor
T-34 is not junk lmao
but instead of going on a rant about how good they are i want to hear how you come to this conclusion first
It was only a “High performer” cause they made them like Cockroaches.
It was how many crappy and cheaply mass produced tanks can we send. Even Soviet documentation states that some crews would abandon their crippled and possibly repairable tank, head to the nearest factory, and continue their trip.
Dev vs Live: Still, once again doesn’t give you all the facts, and I’ve been playing this game long enough to tell you that when the Maus was still in the Tech Tree, it wasn’t good; when it became available at the WT anniversary, that was all you saw, and a lot of matches often had 1 side losing cause no one could kill the Maus. Higher Penetration will not change this. Cause back then we had higher penetration.
My guy, the Soviets decided to upscale the T-34 in design to shove in an 85mm cannon.
But fix none of the problems cause once again the Tank was designed for mass production; all documentation led to the same road.
This was the difference for Germans who prioritized quality… Albeit overengineering. Over Quantity.
US, which in this case was serving as a neutral, was the middle ground where the Vehicle could be mass-produced; however was not cheaply mass-produced while retaining a lot of qualities. Something the T-34 just did not have.
Once again, that was done in the past->It curbstomped everything in downtiers.
Nowadays, it is really no different from back then; in fact, I’d say fewer things can kill it at lower BRs now than they could back then.
To curbstomp you - it has to reach you first. Just don’t drive in front of it and you’re safe lol.
Also nowadays there’s so much CAS and HE/HEAT slingers that Maus isn’t even that big of a problem anymore.
I don’t agree with 7.3, however I do think that Maus shouldn’t fight anything above 7.7.
Conundrum.
Hence why its hidden.
I am not arguing to change the BR of the Maus but you are missing a lot of vehicles here that can pen it frontally without problems
You do realize the 85 was one of the only allied guns that could consistently and easily pen the tiger at range right? Sure, it did do better because there were so many but often times crews didn’t repair the tank because they were never trained how, most of the Russian military at the time was very poorly trained simply because it was the largest in the world by a long shot.
T34s were also EXTREMELY reliable, they didn’t break down very often, and what did break was pretty fixable when the crew was trained.
Back then you also didn’t have half a billion vehicles with HEAT or the speed to flank it. There are A LOT of vehicles that you aren’t meant to combat frontally, they’re nearly invincible when you take them head on but stand no chance on a flank. The Ferdinand is a great example, especially hull down, you’re not killing it unless you have HEAT or APDS or something to that effect, but it only has 60 mils of side armor so even an M22 can kill it. Not to compare it to the Maus, but with the appropriate buffs to guns like the 76 an M18 becomes the bane if it’s existence, HEAT takes it from the front and anything with a decent gun, aka most everything at that BR at that point would very comfortably side pen it.
I wouldn’t call transmissions breaking every 4-10 klicks quality but whatever. Yes, the guns were good, and the armor, but the T34-85 could consistently pen the Tiger 1, could pen the Tiger 2 from the side, and could take a round from the Kwk 43.
Fair enough, I see arguments against a heavy downtier, my main argument is it CANNOT COMPETE well enough to face stuff above 7.7-8.0, especially going against stuff like the T55 with HEAT and APDS/APFSDS that can go straight through it from the front.
._. So we’re going to ignore the Firefly and the 76mm Shermans.
2 primary tanks German tank crews were trained to prioritize if they spotted them.
Also, while you are correct that the Soviet T-34/85 had a gun that could kill Tiger I’s. Something I did not dispute. My statement specifically refers to the fact that T-34s remain a vehicle designed for mass production, not a vehicle designed with any form of quality in mind.
That’s simply stating that it did the job. However, if something better was available, it would have replaced it.
T34s never saw service cause they were US prototypes, and last I recall, only 1- 3 were made.
Back then, yes, we didn’t have a lot of vehicles with heat. That doesn’t change the fact that people often brought said vehicles out anyway. It was either A: You brought multiple of the same vehicles that had Heat FS. Or you also brought out heavy guns. In simple words, nowadays people have a variety of different Heat sluggers. Back then, we just used the same vehicle.
In terms of the transmission, that was primarily the Panther. That still, however, is quality. Cause for the vehicles broke down the way they did. Germans lacked the means to repair the issue. Germans, however, focused on making their vehicles work in the long run, albeit mechanical complications also existed.
Cause why fix it when you can get a new one from the Factory. ->Soviets