Challenger DS may need L26 APFSDS ammunation :(

[ueberman]

I feel like people thing Im stupid or something, to make it clear I do know how this game works, ok? I have germany, Britian and Sweden at top tier (11.7 to be specific).
I am fully aware of how important angled performance is and I never stated that it isnt or that flat pen is more important, like I said before I just used it as a comparison basis since top tier rounds, starting with DM33 in Germany and L26 in Britian, generally have more angled pen if they have more flat pen, there is not much to pay attention to, like on lower tiered rounds.
Im well aware of rounds like L23 and L23A1, as an example, und I also use L23A1 instead of L23, even tho its flat pen is higher.

I actually do like to play a britian a lot myself and also have my most played tanks there, so I dont want to make britian worse then it is, I just want to stick to the truth.

@Kuriaki_Ritsu

When looking at these comprehensive data points, it is evident that the shells of the Soviet Union and Germany are indeed superior to those of other countries.

yes germany has the best ammunition in the whole game, I go with you on that, but there are countries with better ammunition then russia, including USA, Isreal and Japan. The others are pretty much on par with russia and britian just has nothing more to offer, when it comes to the L30A1 cannon, so we just have to deal with it (idk how it is with the french tho). The only choice for a better round is if we get e.g. the Challenger 2 CLIP with the 120mm from Rheinmetall, then we can also use DM53 like the germans.

To prove my point lets just compare the ingame stats of some shells, shall we?

L27A1 @0m, 4,3kg
0° = 564mm
30° = 476mm
60° = 326mm

DM53 @0m, 5kg
0° = 652mm
30° = 550mm
60° = 377mm

M829A2 @0m, 4,92kg
0° = 629mm
30° = 531mm
60° = 364mm

3BM60 @0m, 5,12kg
0° =580mm
30° = 489mm
60° = 335mm

M338 @0m, 5,06kg
0° = 611mm
30° = 516mm
60° = 353mm

Type 10 @0m, 4,2kg
0° = 615mm
30° = 519mm
60° = 355mm

DTC10-125 @0m, 4,85kg
0° = 588mm
30° = 496mm
60° = 340mm

OFL 120 F1@0m, 3,8kg
0° = 575mm
30° = 485mm
60° = 332mm

I can keep going if you want but I think you should get my point, and 4,3kg on rounds like the L27A1 or Type 10 is generally enough to create enough spalling to kill any tank (having spall reduction modifiers like the russians is another topic).

[Kuriaki_Ritsu]

thats really funny, it seems that gaijin is trying to make premium tank more difficult to play than the almost same one in the silver tree. its hard to understand why they usually do that XD

[poopooo]

Not always more difficult, but they take away a bullet that they would have to carry to have them in a lower BR, causing them to stay in a somewhat unbalanced Br on some occasions, or is it the one with the highest BR in your squad or is it the one with the lowest BR , that having its correct bullets and more BR would serve to fill gaps in certain nations. For example, as I said before, the Magach 3 ERA would have to have the M111 ammunition, which would raise the BR to 8.0, which would be fine since Israel already it has five BR 7.7, instead it only has two 8.0 (for me the shot kal alef would have to be 7.7), if the Magach 3 ERA was BR 8.0 it could take three battle tanks in the same template, the Magach 5, the shot kal alef and the Magach 3 ERA.

[Kuriaki_Ritsu]

I totally agree with your point. thats really a good analyse. thanks for your detail data of all these rounds.

L27A1 may be enough, but L23A1 is not enough though. Germany Leopard1A5 have DM33 with 408mm penetration. but challenger MK2 and DS always use this round to fight against T80 and T90. thats funny.

and then if ChallengerDS have L26 it could counter them easier. Also you could play with your USA partner who just bought the M1-KVT.

[Kuriaki_Ritsu]

yes I see. template is a big problem, but its not the reason to nerf these tanks. Or just prevent them to get better rounds.

[ueberman]

at least we came to an agreement in the end, since I stated that I would also like to see L26 on the Challenger DS.

[SlowHandClap]

@Bulletspam

Why not just play the Challenger mk.3 if you want to play 10.3? Why do you need to change a perfectly fine tank to suit your needs? When the tank for you want already exists in game.

Why not just play the Challenger Mk.2 if you want to play 10.0?

[Kuriaki_Ritsu]

It’s like this, I’m sorry I misunderstood your meaning before. :)

[Bulletspam]

@Kuriaki_Ritsu

In real life, there is substantial evidence that the Challenger Mk3 tanks deployed in Desert Storm operations were indeed equipped with the L26 ammunition. You can easily find sources supporting this conclusion, even on Google.

This is a video game, and the devs have already said that ammunition that vehicles receive is more about balance that historical accuracy.

@Kuriaki_Ritsu

Your lineup seems to lack anti-aircraft equipment, and the Chief Marksman at 10.0 has relatively weak capabilities. It means you may have difficulty effectively countering various armed helicopters.

The British faction doesn’t have AA missile carriers like the Ozelot, so the only means of countering enemy aircraft is the “Stormer HVM.” However, it is at 10.3 BR,

The Chieftan Marksman works just fine at shooting down aircraft and helicopters that get close to the battlefield. Mind you most helicopters at 10.0 and lower need to be within range of the 35mm guns on the marksman to do damage to your teammates. What you failed to see in my lineup is my harrier gr.3 it is more than capable of clearing the sky at 10.0. Experienced pilots will tell you the best way to shoot down an aircraft is with another aircraft.

@Kuriaki_Ritsu

the VFM5 lacks TVD and has noticeably insufficient reconnaissance capabilities. Therefore, this 10.0 lineup is not as competitive as other factions.

I have just unlocked the VFM5 recently (with my challenger DS I purchased from the victory day sale this year) and I put it straight into my 10.0 ground lineup. I started playing it while stock and it is not even spaded yet. My current K/D in this vehicle is nearly 2 to 1. So maybe whatever tactics you are using aren’t working for you, but I seem to have no problem playing it at 10.0. Maybe try different tactics because the 105mm with dm33 is still plenty strong at this BR. You can reference my stat card that Im going to link below.

@Kuriaki_Ritsu

Perhaps you can try the Mk3 Challenger at 10.3. With the support of the L26 ammunition, this tank can still counter even the powerful tanks of the United States and the Soviet Union at BR 11.3.

This is a silly argument because the challenger DS will not even face 11.3 tanks at its current BR without the player up tiering it. I also already had the challenger mk3 before I decided to buy the challenger DS. So, I have tried it, so much that my challenger mk3 is spaded. So, like before, you can reference my linked stat card below.

@Kuriaki_Ritsu

In comparison, the 10.0 Challenger is not very powerful because its L23A1 is too weak, even inferior to Italy’s Ariete (P).

Maybe this should be another topic or a reason to move the Ariete(P) up in BR because it compares quiet well to the challenger mk3 than the mk2.

@Kuriaki_Ritsu

Additionally, the protection against ammunition detonation inside the vehicle is inadequate, and its survivability is not good as well. The armor around the cannon breech is also very weak. Therefore, the actual strength of the Challenger DS at 10.0 is not sufficient.

See you already understand the draw backs of the challenger MBT series. Bringing the challenger DS up in BR will only make these weaknesses more apparent.

[Bulletspam]

@SlowHandClap

Why not just play the Challenger Mk.2 if you want to play 10.0?

Maybe you somehow missed it in my 10.0 lineup at I already linked above. Here it is again for you.

@Bulletspam

It’s just to the left of the Challenger DS in this 10.0 line up.

[SlowHandClap]

I don’t care?

I would also use the DS with the mk3, mk7, and stormer to have a proper 10.3 lineup, rather than having to use 8.3 SPAA at 10.0+…

[poopooo]

I have created a post talking about the issue of balancing tanks with ammunition and it has given me to look for some information about the ammunition of the challenger in the gulf war, and it is possible that it is good that the challenger DS uses the L23A1 ammunition The L23A1 ammunition is from 1985 while the L26 ammunition is from 1991, what happens is that the Gulf War began in 1990, so the L26 ammunition would be received once operations had started, that’s why I think the Challenger that carries the Added armor on the hull front would be more likely to carry a small amount of L26 ammunition than the premium model may be a pre-commission L26 model. It would be curious to have exact ammunition deployment information. L26, in which month it entered service and which units received it.

[Kuriaki_Ritsu]

A short history of the UK development of DU anti-tank ammunition

here is an article about CHARM 1 equipped L26 ammunition during the Gulf War. You could check it out :) and if you search L26 Gulf War and you could find more books said L26 indeed appeared in Gulf War.

[poopooo]

Yes, I am not telling you that they did not carry this ammunition, but due to the dates of their entry into service, it would not seem strange to me that there were units that only carried the L23A1.

[Kuriaki_Ritsu]

Sorry English is not my native language so I may misunderstood you xd. But could you please check this. This article said,

An upgrade made in 1991, prior to the Gulf War included explosive resistant armour and a new projectile & charge system (unusually, the UK’s tank ammunition comprises a separate charge and projectiles rather than a combined cartridge). The name for the ammunition part of the programme was CHARM 1 (CHallenger ARmament), and it was originally intended to replace both the gun and the ammunition. In the event, a decision was taken to upgrade the projectile and charge only, and to bring forward a more fundamental upgrade of the tank. So, the Challenger I went into the Gulf War with the 120mm rifled L11A5 gun and the L26 APFSDS DU round.

So these CHARM1 joined the battle with L26 in this article. Thanks for these little details. I’ll try to find more information about this. :)

[poopooo]

I found this, I’m not saying it’s not possible but for the times it’s quite tight, since the L26 bullet is from 1991 and the first British operation in the Gulf War is on January 6, 1991.

Tanks. Being tanks.

Operation Granby

It would be interesting to find an official report to resolve this question, but I already tell you that it cannot be ruled out, also note that the premium challenger does not have retroactive armor covering the bullet part of the hull, which means that it would be a challenger 1 of the first months from the war.

[Kuriaki_Ritsu]

And by the way. We could check this a little. A player has reported this issue on Gaijin Support. But the support team just shut down this article.

https://community.gaijin.net/issues/p/warthunder/i/l6yFshv7tjvx

This is an article that a highly experienced British player submitted to Gaijin Support 8 month ago. In the article, the player used various websites and sources to highlight the issues with the Challenger DS in the game. These websites are worth a look, but the administrators directly closed the thread. I cannot say that the administrators’ behavior is against the rules, but I can say that their actions seem somewhat lacking in empathy. I assume they probably didn’t bother to carefully examine the evidence provided in those links, which clearly demonstrate the equipment and appearance of the Challenger in the Desert Storm operation. However, they showed no interest in it.

Of course, if you argue with that,

all of your sources are 3rd party websites, developers do not count 3rd party websites as reliable sources.

I would like to ask, where does Gaijin obtain the data for these tanks? Is it from official sources? If so, why does the Challenger’s frontal hull armor only have 76mm? I invite everyone to consider whether this is reasonable. XD

[poopooo]

That happened to me when I made a report that the Magach 3 ERA would have to carry the M111 ammunition, and they only closed the report writing that the BR would have to be changed. Three things are clear on the subject of making reports, one is that As it balances with the ammunition, forget that they accept reports on historical ammunition, another clear thing is that they make many excuses to close the reports and that you don’t have the possibility to say anything else, and the last thing is that making reports is almost useless, to be honest I no longer understand why people spend their time making reports.

[Morvran]

Challenger DS really does need L26, L23A1 pen is borderline. Most 10.0s just can’t be penned and if the Challenger Mk3 has L26 and the Challenger DS is a Mk3, then I really dont understand what the issue is. The TURMS has the super ERA and at a lower BR than its TT equivalent. I think L26 would actually turn the DS from being a lemon, into something actually fun. Especially when it litereally only ever fights uptiers

[Smin1080p_WT]

@Kuriaki_Ritsu

But for this ammunation L26., so-called evidence is everywhere, you could find many articles proving L26 is exactly join the Operation Granby, but gaijin still did nothing, thats why im disappointed about them

Hello

The Developers are well aware Challengers used L26 in Desert Storm. This was never in doubt or despute.

Tank shells loadouts are not based on time period spesific loadouts but are balance tools used to suit the tank at its BR best.

The Challenger DS was intended to be at this BR (lower than the L26 armed ones) as it’s best suited here as a premium in line with other similar tanks.

The shell not being present is intended and not a matter of historical accuracy (as shell loadouts are not based on this, but are balance tools).