11.0 is too low but that’s the cross over between the CR1 and CR2 they are very similar tanks just one has better thermals and one has a massive weak spot above it’s breach in TOGS.
At their current BRs CR2s are a rough experience and only fans or people bored of stomping everyone with a Leopard 2A7 gravitate to the slower gameplay style as a palate cleanser
The Challenger 2 is a significant upgrade over the Challenger 1. The CR2 may have bigger weak spots, but above around 11.0 the entire Challenger 1 is a weakspot as its armour is only at maximum 500mm effective against KE.
I personally do not find the Challenger 2’s to be “bad”, the 11.7 British lineup is pretty good and the 2E and Black Night are capable 12.0s
What needs to happen is the Leopard 2A7V and other very strong tanks needs to go to 12.3 or 12.7, the Challengers don’t really need to go down
In relation to other 11.7 and 12.0s it probably should be that low, or at least that far apart, but likewise should be higher than some 11.0 and you are right, it’s not 0.3 better the CR1.
What is needed is the CR2s to drop 0.3 and for some 12.0s and 11.7s to be increased by 0.3 instead
I’d support the TES/OES going to 11.3, if they didn’t overperform too much then I guess the others could follow.
I can see why people want them to all go down, but I don’t think the CR2 base is equal to the TES considering how much faster it is.
As is typical of gaijin, BR compression is the main issue.
Yeah it is. 11.7-12.0 could be spread over 11.7-12.7 rather easily imo, and then nothing would need to move down. Especially if coupled with a few buffs, like extra armour/spall liners, ready rack fixes and a dozer blade
The fact the Leo 2A5 and 2A7V are the same BR is quite ridiculous, I agree that 12.7 would be good for the best tanks.
If the Chally 2 did get the ready rack buff and its full spall liners (lfp and side hull) then it would be a whole lot more competitive. I submitted a report for hull side spall liners, but Im still waiting for a response
I’d also like to see a gun elevation speed buff, I dont see why its worse than both the Cheiftain Mk.10 and Challenger 1 series that proceed the CR2
This occurs in more than a few places iirc
CR2 also faces tanks with stronger rounds.
CR1 doesnt 3BM42, wont go through CR1 turret cheek.
DM-53 and 3BM60 have a chance to go through CR2s front turret face and any part of the hull.
CR2 is fine, it’s fun if you want a slower style gameplay. A palate cleanser.
No War thunder player is taking a CR2 over a BVM any Leopard 2A5/6/7 or an M1A2.
Neither DM53 or 3MB60 can pen the Challenger 2’s turret cheeks
They can closer to the mantlet.
Thats not the turret cheeks though. The Challenger 2 has a huge, massive hole between the its cheeks, but the cheeks themselves wont be penned (though anyone that hits them really need to learn to aim better)
The Chally 2 used to have an armour hole in its turret cheeks, but luckily gaijin actually fixed it (for once)
The only place you can actually pen is the mantlet itself, and with volumetic it can sometimes be a bit funky.
Every top tier has a bad mantlet too, the leclerc/type 10 both have way worse mantlets than the Challenger. The Ariete might as well not have a mantlet weakspot as its whole turret is a weakspot.
My main point is at 11.0s main competition will be ZTZs Merkavas T90A, Fujis, M1A1s, T80B, Leo2a4s all of em can easily take out an CR2 also There isnt huge upgrade besides thermals and turret cheeks still turret is full of weakspots. Mobility wise both Cr1 and Cr2 are identical
ZTZ fires 577mm pen better mobility 7.1 reload
M1A1 588mm pen better protection better mobility gen 1 thermals same reload
T90A 580mm pen better protection better mobility 7.1 reload
Fuji 481mm pen (4 sec) troll
Merkava 588mm pen (6 kg shell) better protection, same mobility, same reload
Cr2 564mm pen
as if the turret is more than 50% cheak lol, the breach is at minimum a third of what theyll hit and most of the time people will aim for the centre. also ignoring that massive forehead gaijin has given us where its basically a one shot as well…
What are we even arguing about at this point? that the chally 2 is comparative to the leo 2a7? The TES should be 11.3 along with the 2f maybe (you can remove the add on armour from it so its iffy. The normal should be 11.7 along with the 3td (could be 11.3 but safer sat at 11.7). The 2e and BK can be 12.0 and are.
Every single top tier tank has a huge breach. It isn’t an issue which is exclusive to the Chally 2, so using it as a reason to downtier the tank isn’t really fair.
The Chally 2’s breech is about 30% of the turret face, which is comparable to most other NATO tanks. If anything the Leopard has a larger breach.
The forehead is quite often also an auto-richochet or it does very little damage because of the spall liner. The commanders sight however is a notable weakspot.
2A7V vs L27A1
CR2 vs L27A1
The Abrams has a huge turret ring weakspot, and do I even need to mention how bad the Ariete/Leclerc/Type10/Merkava turret armour is?
Chinese tanks also have a huge mantlet weakspot, only Russian tanks have a somewhat small mantlet but its still very easy to hit as well is their drivers port.
My argument is the moving the Challenger 2’s down to 11.0 would make them far too strong and that most of them are fine at their current BRs. I think instead, that stronger tanks such as the Leopard 2A7V should go to 12.3 or 12.7.
I know protection analysis gives similar looking results but in practice I don’t find it works out that way.
For example T80/90/Leopards, I think because of the construction and layout of the mantlet/breach area they are not guaranteed penetrations and when you do the spall tends to be more focused and eaten by the breach.
It’s not just about can you penetrate but what happens after and for the Challengers it tends to be far more damaging.
I do agree 11.0 is too low but if there is to be no decompression then 11.3 for the 2/2F/TES/OES should be okay. I would even drop the BK/2E to 11.7 but then that leaves the 3TD in a weird spot again, showing just how badly decompression is what’s actually needed.
Alternatively they could buff the ready rack size and/or make the initial reload 4/4.5 seconds and fix the mantlet position(yeah right).
They are the worst top tier, does not mean they are useless, however the effort required to do good in a CR2 compared to most the roster is just silly.
Ill keep that in mind next time I put a round through a CR2 LFP and take it out xD
Its armour is laughably worse for the BR compared ot the CR1 mk3’s man.
BR for BR the CR1’s are actually better than teh CR2’s are BR for BR.
The CR1’s have the L26 round, which is close to DM/JM 33 in penetration levels.
In comparisson the L27A1 round is actually worse than the 11.3 M829A1 round found on 11.3 abrams tanks.
Though no it should not be 11.0 that is just silly
Whats even funnier is the M1A2 abrams sitting at 11.7 which is actively lower than the 2A5 while having a better round, reload, similar optics, similar mobility and arguably better turret armour.
Too many folks act like the breach weak points arent there on every other tank.
Though I will say if you look at CR2 due to the way its modelled you can pretty much shoot through the top of its roof and consistently take out the crew, even with a round like DM23 on the 2a4.
TBH like has been stated if the CR2 got its armour fixed, and the ready rack sorted its lack of mobility and mediocre round wouldn’t matter that much at all.
However we sit here as you say with 2a7’s sittin at the same BR as 2a5’s and such ot makes no sense
Yes but protection maps do not tell whole story.
2A7/HU/122B will regularly bounce/deflect breach shots.
That upper front plate is an absolute trap and should never be shot at.
Then the spacing of the crew the 2A7 is far more surviveable.
CR2 regulary gets one tapped by a 2S38 from both the front and the side
What? they just don’t man, Its how I beat them with the VT4A1 and WZ1001
The spall liner helps too.
Or HSTVL its more of an issue, 2S38 isnt much of a problem since it got its modules, as usually youll disable it even if you dotn kill it one shot