That does not exclude private ownership of a hull, no?
From a legal viewpoint, someone must have owned it. Since the whole thingy was private venture (or at least as far as I know) and thus not done on the order of any goverment, and the demonstrator hull was fitted with new turret and repainted in the hexagonal camo, I doubt it was leased.
Who would be responsible for possible damages?
It was borrowed from the Challenger 2LEP after testing was completed in Germany.
It wasn’t fitted with a new turret
It was borrowed by Rheinmetal by approval of the British MoD
It is a re guning of the Challenger 2 ATD the tank we have in game by the name of Challenger 3
It is not a new turret that is just add on stuff to make it look different
It was never owned by Rheinmetal
Aight, fair. That answers the question I had.
Not borrowed, it was given and used a technology demonstrator for the potential LEP (Life Extension Program) for the Challenger 2, which was never touched with a two-foot pole after it was built because British MoD didn’t want anything larger than a 120mm gun. Rheinmetall merely showcases how they can upgrade the vehicle internally, and externally with their Land Systeme division gun, chempro and electronics. They were given either two or three to work off of, and one of them ended up as a demonstrator.
https://www.army.mod.uk/learn-and-explore/equipment/combat-vehicles/challenger-3/
So the demonstrator is purely German in design by Rheinmetall. As I said previously, it would make no sense for Britain to get a vehicle when they haven’t adopted and have been fairly public about not wanting 15L 130mm shells, as I previously mentioned.
Let me start this of, with that i believe that gajin should just be fair and add the Challenger 130 to both nations, no matter the circumstances.
those are 120mm tanks, pretty much nearly the same as challenger 3
they dont even exist
just as you claim the challenger 130, italy/hungary could claim KF51 since they are the service users soon
EMBT comes in 120mm and 1 140mm, the 140mm gets claimed by the french cause its their gun, more then germany.
The chally 130 isnt even comparable to half of the stuff you named.
Every tank with upscaled gun could be claimed by another country, just like you already doing.
The 140mm leos are last gen cannons as well and dont compare to the modern guns.
So here we are now and germany has effectivly 0 claim to their own developed tanks, cause countries that didnt have part in it claim them for themself
As we already have shown with sources, the challenger 130 was in fact developed as a tech demonstrator specialy towards germany
"The main objective for Rheinmetall is the MGCS programme, in which the 130 mm competes against Nexter’s 140 mm proposal. “ The way ahead - EDR Magazine
I still dont understand how this misconception came to be, there was never proof of that.
its a weird wish/claim that british started to justify claim over the vehicle
as already stated italy could pull the same thing you are doing.
except it being german
and yet you yourself compare it to 120mm tank and justify it being worse then 120mm tanks
but how is that the fault of germany?
You have no one to blame but your own MOD for that, that shouldnt make you desperate and start claiming vehicles you never had hands on.
And that matters how? There is several modification of leopard 1s and leopard 2s that were developed by other countries.
Leo 2 ruag swiss
Leo 2NG turkish
Leo 2 Apsis /EODH Greece
And several more, all those modifications are private ventures of companies, but germany doesnt claim that we developed them. We had no hands in them. They are proud developments of their own countries. Germany had no hand in them.
On the other hand there is Leo 2 revolution, Strv122, Leo 2a4M Can, 2E, 2Hel. Those are all proudly german developed. Cause they are german developed versions, yes even Strv122. And then licensed for production.
You have to stand proudly to your countries achievment and let it go when its not the case.
The tanks shoudl go either go to their developer/user nation or if they are not in the game.
To the nation that developed the base version. As it has been the case with 2a4m can and 2PL
In the case of the Challenger 130, Uk doesnt fullfill any of those roles. since the developer nation is germany even if its not in service.
in fact as we already have shown you, its developed specialy for germany and the stake in the MGCS project.
lets be honest, that has never been the case and likely never will be.
Just look at the current state of the game.
And what are countries like japan, israel, sweden supposed to do then, that have absolutly no option for an upscaled gun?
Italy arguably the KF51 130mm just as you are claiming the chally 130.
Is britian in any way better then those countries and deserves a better treatment?
Was already answered by him previously as well, but then yet again.
Its only right that the actualy developers suggestion gets forwarded.
Following the official suggestion forum rules, the chally 130, shoudl never have been allowed to be suggested for Uk in the first place and the mod that handled it did a mistake there.
You say that like the actual regunning is an easy thing to do with its auto loader as well.
The tank was given to rheinmetall for the Challenger 3 project, when that was done, it was loaned to Rheinmetall so that they accomplish their own seperate goals, of producing a proof of concept for germany.
The irony being that you actualy provided us with the proof of that, while trying to deminish germanys participation.
During the time of the loan, the ownership changed to Rheinmetall itself, where they modified the challenger towards their own specifications to show it of to germany.
Honestly, i find it sad that the british playerbase needs to change several facts about a vehicle to justify it being their own.
There was people that claimed the whole thing was done in the UK, while we needed to proof in fact it was done in germany Unterlüß.
There is claims that it was done by RBSL, which never has been the case or proven.
Britains needed to so desperate to do the irrelevant claim that the base vehicle is in ownership of britain. Which is completly irrelevant cause we are talking about the specific modification.
Neither does the fact that it is a challenger matter.
There is no uniqueness for mbts anymore.
Abrams, Leos, T-series are spread in so many trees. There is nothing that makes the Challenger unique that should take it outside of those rules
Honestly british players should be happy a lot of german players no matter what would throw them a bone and are for the equal addition to both nations.
In the mean time they twist it and try to deny it to germany.
If the gun is enough to make it a German tank, the British tech tree can get every royal ordnance l7 vehicle in game. Leopards, turm, Japanese 105(I think), 105 Abrams etc.
Gonna be a very full tree.
so the compelte turret remodel doesnt matter?
Implementing the gun and autoloader is an easy feat that anyone could do.
So why didnt britain do it themself?
This unique greece Leopard is completly german cause they only replaced the 120mm with a 105mm which no one else did?
Did britains actualy develop those variants of the vehicles and modify and or built them?
No? well to bad. Its not the fact that the cannon is german.
Its the fact that germany modified the vehicle to be able to actualy use it and it was done specialy with the mind of advertising it toiwards germany
Stop disregarding the accomplishments of other nations because you dont like the reality.
It can easily go to both as a premium, event or squad vehicle which has been done in the past, it wasn’t adopted by either nation as a production model but as a test bed. Both countries have a claim the hull is british the gun and fcs are german. I would honestly rather see a prototype and full production variant of the chally 3 in the british tech tree than another tech demonstrator akin to the 3TD.
best option of course would be a tech tree, but event would be the worst, since those gajin wants to keep those “unique” and those wouldnt be added to the other tree
honestly, that normaly isnt quite how it works, that would mean germany has claim over the vickers mk7, ItPsV Leopard and so on that use leo hulls,
Still we wanna stay fair and just give it to uk as well
Nah.
Rheinmetall explained that they converted it temporarily to 130mm during a 3 week period after some tests with the 120mm gun that they had carried out in Germany, before it was due to be returned to the UK with the 120mm gun. They needed the UK MoD’s consent to do it.
nobody claimed otherwise.
But thats where the UK participation in it ended. For the 3 week period, it was in Ownership of rheinmetall germany
Apart from providing the optics and fire control system that was used on both 120mm and 130mm gun tests, and Thales’ engineers to support that integration.
Let’s be very clear, because this is important. Are you arguing that they tried to get Germany to adopt a challenger 2 with the 130mm gun, or that they were trying to get Germany to adopt the 130mm gun and were using the challenger 2 to do so? It must be the latter as there is zero chance of Germany adopting the challenger 2 hull which hasn’t been in production since 2002.
My (tongue in cheek) argument is that the origin of various components doesn’t really make a difference in placement - hence the l7. You don’t see Russian tanks in the French tech tree after all, even though they use Catherine thermal imagers.
The equitable solution is for it to go to both trees. As long as they don’t pull another example of giving other nations vehicles to Germany and not the other nation then it’s all good.
those were part of the 120mm tests.
the 130mm was another project,
Or do you have proof for your claims?
dotSHINI explained it more in detail, and while he could provide more sources, im inclined to believe his version, solely because it wouldnt make sense to me, from legal point of view, to modify and repaint a tank hull you dont own for marketing purposes.
Imagine the legal circus should something expensive breaks as direct result of modification done … on leased tank.
Like, imagine renting a car in order to modify it for street racing, only to undo all modifications that were done when you finish the street race and go to return it.
Believe it or not, you have to recalibrate the optics and fire control system when putting a bigger gun in the tank. That has to be done with the support of the OEM
yes
"The main objective for Rheinmetall is the MGCS programme, in which the 130 mm competes against Nexter’s 140 mm proposal. “ The way ahead - EDR Magazine
i agree, but with the statements you demerit the actual work behind integrating all the stuff, the turret was temporarily remodelled as well to accomandate the bigger gun and autoloader
and thats all i want, cause if they dont do it. I can bet your ass on germany getting the short end of the stick. challenger 130 in uk only, KF51s in italy only even 130mm and EMBTs going to france.
Germany has to go down this path, or we are missing on half of our development projects.
Challenger 130 is likely the smallest actual one. But we cant allow a precedent.
And it just foxes me that so many demerit germanys actual work in the project,
We still ragebaiting in 2026 bruh?
and again, who says they didnt switch out the fcs while they are at it, to sth they are more knowledegable about and is better integrated to the 130mm.
There is few known about the actual capabilities of the challenger 130 and we have to go by what is officaly known. We simply dont know if or how much of participation was done by UK.
But simply cause of that we are so fair and say it should just be added to both nations
